I'm dumb: A9 w/ 2nd pair

I try to take time to think about hands away from the table, but when I'm playing, I just do stupid stuff w/o thinking. Not sure about any street.

MP3 (21) 33.3 4.8 37.5 AF 1.2
UTG+2 (60) 15 5 10 AF 8

Edit: Took Derek's advice to explain my thoughts.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.
<font color="blue"> Ok, is this raise wrong? I figure it plays well multi-handed and I have my share of pot equity. A big pot is better for me if I hit my draw.</font>

Flop: (10.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.
<font color="blue"> Maybe I should have led, but I was hoping to raise an LP bettor, which I had no reason to believe would bet. Once I checked, I figured that I had outs to peel.</font>

Turn: (10.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 calls.
<font color="blue"> Ok, so now MP bets, the pot is big and I thought I could knock out a better hand that UTG+2 might hold while maybe I have the best hand and if not, I could improve.</font>

River: (14.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP3 checks.
<font color="blue"> No clue what to do, no f'in clue. </font>

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

[Derek in NYC]

This was so badly mangled, I dont know where to begin. I think you will get more responses, and better feedback, if you proceed street-by-street and try to explain what you were thinking at each juncture. You appear to be making numerous fundamental errors.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

I would like to see how others would play this hand. Personaly I don't raise preflop. I would bet the flop as well. Middle pair top kicker and BD flush draw, then see what happens from there.

Just wondering, why did you raise pre flop then check the flop?

[ErrantNight]

your flop check/call sucks. as does your turn check/raise.

[hicherbie]

pf - good stuff.
flop - id bet out and call a raise.
turn - id think just call with a fd and a pair oop...
river - cry and c/c HU

I wouldn't raise anything below ATs from the small blind... A9s seems speculative without the straight possibility and strong kicker to back up the one high card and flush. The smaller pot would have made a fold easier and correct on the flop against a reraise.
Your backdoor flush on the flop gives you about 1.5 outs in addition to the two nines and three aces... though a nine might be discounted a little bit since two pair is a possibility for one of your opponents. So you're about 7:1 to improve..., I would have called here too.
Your flush draw on the turn easily warrants a call, but probably not a raise because you are (most likely)behind at the moment, and you won't get the queen, or queen-nine to fold. You also have the added advantage of possibly keeping the folders in the pot to increase the return on the flush if you hit it.
So I would have called the preflop and turn, instead of raising there, especially if the game is loose/passive.
Just my opinion [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't like your action on any street

pre-flop - while you correctly point out the strong aspects of your hand, you neglect to mention the biggest weakness - position - you are going to have to be first to act on all streets and this is a major disadvantage.

flop - with 2nd pair on a rainbow flop and an A kicker, I would lead out here. No one showed particular strength preflop, so you should be in good shape. Plus, you have a chance to gather some useful information by leading out.
As it was, you checked and faced a bet and a raise - I don't like that situation, with only 2nd pair, so I would fold.

Turn - Now you have 2nd pair and a nut flush draw. Lead out again

River - hard to say because if you had bet the previous streets differently, you would have a lot more info to go on.

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, is this raise wrong? I figure it plays well multi-handed and I have my share of pot equity. A big pot is better for me if I hit my draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with raising A9s from the SB is that while it is true that you will build a big pot if you hit your draw, you will hit your draw (or made flush) only once in 9 flops. Additionally, unlike the situation of raising A9s from the button after numerous limpers, you have the post-flop problem of playing a draw OOP (i.e., passively). Now as for the pair value of A9s, most times you're going to hit a tricky flop that is tough OOP. So again, there's little point in trying to build the pot, since you can't really jam most flops with top pair weak kicker, or middle pair best kicker. Completing A9s from the SB is therefore the clearly correct option, and raising is clearly incorrect in this multiway field.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I should have led, but I was hoping to raise an LP bettor, which I had no reason to believe would bet. Once I checked, I figured that I had outs to peel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is pretty close between leading and checking this flop. Arguing in favor of leading is that there are str8 draws out there, and there could be a number of overcards to your 9s if nobody has a queen, that will cripple your hand if you give a freecard. On the other hand, you're first to act facing 4 opponents, so your bet wont have much of a chance to win the pot immediately, and the turn still ends up being tricky. So on balance here, I probably check with the intention of (a) raising a late position bettor; (b) folding if the action gets hot; or (c) peeling one off for 1 bet if I'm getting 8:1 or better. The reason to checkraise a late position bettor is that of course you protect your middle pair against overs, and you can figure out on 4th street if the bet was a steal attempt or a made hand. Now the way the action developed, you definitely ran into some hot &amp; heavy betting, so if it were me, I'd fold the flop. Sure, you're getting 15:2 odds on your call, but you dont close the action here, as you could get pinned between the original flop bettor and raiser. So while it might ordinarily make sense to "peel" when you're getting close to 8:1 odds, the fact that you dont close the action turns this flop into a fold for me. The presence of the backdoor nut draw makes it a tad closer, since you're hitting to 6 outs, but I still probably fold here. Finally, its worth mentioning that I dont think you "peeled" here--you cold called in a situation where you didn't close the betting action. If you're "peeling" off cards for two bets a lot, you may have a big leak.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so now MP bets, the pot is big and I thought I could knock out a better hand that UTG+2 might hold while maybe I have the best hand and if not, I could improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 11:1 on a 4:1 so clearly you're going to play. The only question is whether to raise or call. I understand your thinking about knocking out players, but think about the consequence of knocking out players. MP3 cold-called 2 on the flop which to me says either TJ, or a badly misplayed TT or JJ, or of course a queen. The point I'm making is that you are behind MP3 (unless he is drawing at TJ or a club flush), so knocking out hands that can draw out on your 9s isn't going to help you since you're still going to have a second-best holding. (Your 9 and ace are pretty clean outs, since trip 9s/TK is likely goot, as is aces up.) It makes sense to knock out hands like KT only if MP3 is drawing, so unless you have a read that puts MP3 on the draw or a bluff, c/ring the turn doesnt make sense to me. Youve indicated this guy is 33/4/1.2, so while he's loose-passive, I dont think you can narrow down his holdings too much. Maybe he has a made hand, maybe not, so in this situation, I would call, and hope to either hit one of my 9 outs to the flush, or trip/two pair outs. Note that if you were in position and the MP3 bet into you, I think it would be a clear raise, not only b/c of the knocking-out rationale, but also because you could take a free showdown. But from the SB, I dont like the c/r.

EDITED TO ADD: leading the turn is actually probably best with the nut draw, a pair, and an ace. My comments on this street are confused by trying to react to your stated rationale.

[ QUOTE ]
No clue what to do, no f'in clue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Played the way you did, I definitely dont value bet it. If he's on a draw, he hit, and your bet will only be raised. If he has a queen, he will call you down. I dont much care for check-calling here with third-pair, but I dont like folding for 1 bet either in a monster pot. However, given the prior action and the general passivity of this player, Im probably check-folding the river. I do think that in a good number of situations, a passive villain after a checkraise on the turn, will also check behind on the river, even if he is holding a queen.