Not raising AQ offsuit on the button.

[Lawrence Ng]

Played a local 4-8 game 2 days ago. It was perhaps the most loose-passive game ever. Hardly a raise preflop.

After 5 limpers came in I had AQ offsuit on the button and raised....

Then something inside of me struck:

In HPFAP, page 161 Sklanksy states -

Suppose you start with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

You should not raise with this hand in many siutations because of a variety of reasons. First, you give your hand away. Second, let's say 4 people limp in and you are on the button. You should probably not raise. Now let's say the flop comes:

T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

.... And by not raising you are more likely to have someone bet into you, and if you do flop an ace or a queen you can raise and force people who would otherwise have called, getting their price.

One of the problems with raisng with this hand is that everyone checks to you on the flop, you bet (assuming you make a pair), and they are getting the proper price to call you with middle or bottom pair (assuming they have a different kicker) So they are no longer making a mistake on the flop when they call you.

However on page 83 of SSHE, Ed Miller states in his chart that if a player is one off the button or on the button that they should raise AQ offsuit.

So should I raise AQ in late position in a loose game or not?

Lawrence

[poker-penguin]

5 limpers? This is a game where SSH > HFAP.

The books are dealing with different styles of games.

My feel is definately raise AQ, until you're playing in the kind of game that HFAP was talking about.

[dozer]

I don't think HPFAP applies to the loose local 4-8 games. It is assuming the players that limp are decent players that make good decisions postflop, so by limping the AQ you can induce more mistakes by keeping the pot small.

SSHE is for loose games so I would follow the advice in SSHE in this case. The players already play horrible post flop no matter the size of the pot, so you lose a lot of Sklansky bucks by not raising this preflop.

[sy_or_bust]

You might find this discussion interesting:

raise jacks out of the small blind?

A ways down it turns into Clarkmeister (and Ed Miller, if I recall) criticizing Sklansky's advice here (as it applies to loose low limit games) and advocating a raise with hands like AQ.

[SmileyEH]

Your opponents have to be decent for this advice to apply.

-SmileyEH

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
SSHE is for loose games so I would follow the advice in SSHE in this case. The players already play horrible post flop no matter the size of the pot, so you lose a lot of Sklansky bucks by not raising this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I believe. They are horrible, chasing gutshotsm two pairs, runner runner with horrible odds. I figure if they are going to chase with horrible odds, and make such horrendous mistakes, that they should pay more for doing so.

Lawrence

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponents have to be decent for this advice to apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes for: The deception portion of the advice

No for: pretty much everything else. Reread the advice, and you will realize that you actually WANT your opponents to be bad for the advice to apply.

[RatFink]

As mentioned, the play is recommended differently in multiple texts. Super System II has a discussion recommending limping along.

My personal favorite discussion of it is from Abdul Jahib.

http://web.archive.org/web/200306031...lop-abdul.html

[ QUOTE ]
Example: You are facing five loose limpers and you are on the button. How do you play your hand?


QQ
Raise. You will win the pot more than your fair share, though < 50%.

55
Call. About 8-way to flop, but it will win less than 1 in 8 times.

ATs
Raise. Big suited's win more than their fair share in multiway pots.

76s
Raise. Even suited zero gappers win more than their fair share here.

AQ
Raise. Your hand is likely best, by far.

JT
Fold. If you want to play offsuit cards, you must have the best.



It is a myth that hands like AQ are in trouble here. You are in trouble if you don't raise, but if you raise you wreck the implied odds of the suited garbage your opponents hold. AQ frequently wins even in family pots by making aces up with queen kicker or an AKQJT straight. Also, your cards have a better chance of being live if no one raised, so you will win the pot considerably more than your fair share of the time. Similarly, if you were likely to have the highest hand with something like KJ or even KT, you should raise here, again partially for win share, partially to wreck the implied odds of your opponents. However, if you make a mistake by usually laying down AQ on flop that misses even though you believed you had the best hand preflop then perhaps you would be better off playing incorrectly preflop by not raising. Another exception could be made if your opponents will "check to the raiser" if and only if the flop contains an ace, king, or queen


[/ QUOTE ]

[oreogod]

It is intresting that the charts in King Yaos book reccomend raising AQo against two limpers, but calling against more. Im assuming it is because the book is geared towards games where ppl play a little better.

[Lmn55d]

[ QUOTE ]
Reread the advice, and you will realize that you actually WANT your opponents to be bad for the advice to apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

no you don't. Limping AQo is good if two things are true. First, your opponents are only limping solid hands and not hands like J4s, 89o, etc. as they are in low-mid limit online games and the game in question I assume. If this is the case, your equity is lower and your immediate preflop EV gain from raising is likewise lower. Second, limping and keeping the pot small will cause your opponents to make a lot more mistakes than they otherwise would. Bad opponents will make mistakes anyway. In the game described by OP, you should definitely raise AQo.