Was this a great call, or a maniacal call?

[pokerraja]

I'm playing my normal NL100 (6-handed) game yesterday at PP. Minutes earlier, I had just lost a big pot to runner runner flush to crack my set. So I re-buy, and I was getting a bit frustrated. Not exactly on tilt. But when I'm frustrated combined with tired I start seeing too many flops and chase too much.

OK, I'm in BB ($110) with (3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) UTG open raises to $10 (Normal raise at this table for premium hands) this table was not scared to mix things up. UTG+1 smooth calls the raise. folded to button who also smooth calls the $10. SB folds, action to me. I rationalize this might be a good time for me to see the flop. great implied odds. and Maybe these guys are all on AK, AJ, AQ, etc.. Fine, I will see the flop, and maybe i will hit it big, otherwise I will muck. So I call the other $8.

Flop was an amazing (5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]). Giving me a pair of fours with open ending straight flush draw. Im not sure If I could of asked for a better flop. Heck maybe I'm even ahead right now! This table was hard to read. So I come out betting $25. UTG without hesitation goes over the top and hes all-in with his $125. UTG+1 calls with his remaining $50. Button folds and action is to me. Wow, they have to be on high pocket pair now i figure. I quickly count my outs. I Have 9 flush outs, 6 straight outs, not to mention 5 more outs to hit my trips and/or two pair. (correct me if im wrong with counting my outs please). So I call with my remaining $75. pot of approximatly $290. I'm getting great odds.

Turn card was 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Giving me 2 pair, I have to be ahead now. River brings an unbelievble 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Giving me 3 fulls of fours! Turns out UTG had KK and UTG+1 AA. So I drag down a huge pot with a questionable call preflop. AA guy obvioulsy misplayed his hand. His slow play brought me into the hand.

So what do u guys think? was this a great play by me? or am i a lucky SOB [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]??? thanks for any input.

[Huskiez]

As long as you think a couple of these guys will pay you off if they have good preflop hands and you hit big on the flop, which was the case here, I like the preflop call. This flop is perfect for you, and I figure my chips are definitely going in.

By the way, you slightly miscounted your outs I think. It is very likely either UTG or UTG+1 has an A (not definite though), so I don't think the 3 3's as complete outs, and there might not be 4 A's in the deck. But I still believe you have odds to call.

I'm not sure whether you realized that the turn gave AA the straight? But you got it back on the river. Nice hand.

[PokerFun]

Your preflop call was not ok. $8 is too much with only $110 in front of you - and only two additional players in the pot. You know, the chance of getting the flop you did (or something as good) is very very small.

[Huskiez]

Generally you can follow the 5-10 rule, where this $8 call falls in between 5% and 10% of his stack so it's questionable. But with three people already in preflop, I think he can take a flop, given his implied odds if he hits it big.

[PokerFun]

I still think the odds are far far to bad (I missed the third guy on the button). What is the chance of hitting something playable (two pair, trips or better, straight, straight/flush draw with/without pair) with 43s? And what if they don't have big pairs and are not going to loose any money to you when you do hit? And the times you get a four flush on the flop and loose to a higher flush? I would think a $2 or $4 call would be ok here (probably only a $2).

[josie_wales]

I will read the rest of the post and reply in a moment, but I particularly enjoyed:

[ QUOTE ]
(I was) Not exactly on tilt. But when I'm frustrated combined with tired I start seeing too many flops and chase too much .


[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

JW

[pokerraja]

yes, i forgot to mention that the turn did give AA the straight. So I did suckout on the river with an unlikely fullhouse. I did call it a night after this hand.

One thing i have learned in this game of NL100. to win a big pot , many times you have to take a calculated gamble. In other words get your money in when you might be behind but have great odds to eventually win the hand. If im even money to win the hand, but have 3-1 on my money, I like to take this gamble. like someone said that I could lose to a higher flush. That is a true point, but very unlikely. Short handed I like to take caculated risks. I have the bankroll for it. This style has also been very profitable for me. The key is how I play after the flop. Also looking back, calling the $10 was too much. Calling $4 is probably the maximum, and that is pushing it. So I think it was a very loose call. But I like calling medium suited connectors (actually these were low connectors!) when the implied odds are great.

[cornell2005]

Side theory question:

do you bet out pot on the flop or push right away? keep in mind UTG+1 just smooth-called preflop.

i was working out potential hands in my head and what the advantages of betting just 25 rather than pushing were for each, but maybe theres a simpler way to look at this.

clearly its very much player dependent, but what are the player reads you need to bet 25 and to push?

I would just bet 25 here like you did, only because a push would make AA or KK fold a bit more bc a push with a straight would make alot of sense here. what if the straight draw wasnt on the board? or, what other factors have to be looked at here?

[josie_wales]

Hello and welcome to the forum,

Be careful when you calculate your outs. Sure there are 9 flush cards, not to the nut flush, but you should be ok here with a flush ....and there are 6 other straight cards which should be fine.

However, that "3" you are counting will give anyone with an Ace a straight .

If you count your straight outs (6) and your flush outs (9) as well as your (2) other fours, it would seem that you have 17 reasonably clean outs as it surely looks like you are against two over pairs.

Your outs leave you as a 17-30 = 1.75-1 dog to hit your outs) but you are getting 3.8-1 odds on your call.

The odds are even better for you in that these odds are based on just the turn. You will get a redraw at the river as well.

On other thing to consider here is this:

This really looks like a situation where you are against two big overpairs. If that were the case, and lets say that they contain one of your spade outs between the two of them....

That leaves you as a coinflip vs the two of them (51% to 49%). You are essentially even money.

On a side note. I would be willing to bet that if you werent on tilt ....errrr.....I mean "tired and frustrated" , that you would NOT have played 3-4 to a raise out of position.

JW

[pokerraja]

After that flop, I was not going to fold to any bet. So I came out betting, either they will call, push over the top or maybe fold. I think $25 was a good bet here, it did what I wanted it to do, and that is get action.