more "minor stuff"

[Tuco]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...on_report_dc_3

C'mon guys. You will never be better at torturing people than Saddam if you don't try harder...

Tuco.

[MMMMMM]

I don't get it. Obviously these guys will be punished; some are already facing criminal charges. Does anyone really expect that there won't be a few bad apples in any organization containing hundreds of thousands of people? Yes it's disgusting and a shame and these perps deserve to be punished. So....just watch the liberals and Arabs have a field day with this. But let's keep it in perspective, OK? Compared to Saddam's abuses, this was rather mild.

To anyone that this sickened: Saddam's regime's tortures and abuses must have sickened you 1,000 times more because they were far more brutal and commonplace, right? RIGHT??? So be glad he is no longer able to do things like this and worse, and be glad that these perps are going to be punished by the US military justice system. And be glad for the Iraqi people that this sort of thing is now rare instead of commonplace in Iraq.

[Tuco]

M, you completely miss the point.

Of course Saddam was much worse. Thats obvious. But the fact is that if we are going to sit here and be disgusted by what he did, how can we point a finger and say shame on him when we do similar things? Sure, sodomizing someone with a lightbulb or broomstick is not *as* bad as some of the things that S did, but its only a matter of degree.

Tuco.

[The Dude]

The abuses Sadam put people through is 100x worse than what these prisoners were put through, but that's besides the point. Don't downplay how repulsive this behavior is (or how ashamed we should be that it happened) just because someone else was worse.

There is no excuse for this behavior. Period. Don't make any apologies or excuses. No sidestepping and no downplaying. Civilized people are better than that, and if the U.S. wants to protect its image in the world, the responsible parties will face SERIOUS jail time.

[MMMMMM]

I'm not downplaying anything. But obviously the perps will be punished, and the focus should be on how much good we did in Iraq by getting rid of systemic future "100x worse" abuses.

On the other hand if the guys weren't going to be punished, or if this was a systemic US military policy, the focus should be different. But that isn't the case. This unfortunate incident should primarily serve to illuminate the benefits of getting rid of Saddam's state torture machinery, provided the miscreants are dealt with appropriately.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course Saddam was much worse. Thats obvious. But the fact is that if we are going to sit here and be disgusted by what he did, how can we point a finger and say shame on him when we do similar things? Sure, sodomizing someone with a lightbulb or broomstick is not *as* bad as some of the things that S did, but its only a matter of degree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Matter of degree is 90% of it in this case.

Also, and equally important, worse such horrors were institutionalized under Saddam.

I don't see why the blame shouldn't be systemic in Saddam's case and isolated to a few jerks and maybe their superiors in our case. I can't see why anyone would just call them "similar" and leave it at that. A whole system was to blame in Saddam's case; a few assh&^%# were to blame in our case. Big difference wouldn't you agree?

And of course it's inexcusable and revolting. That doesn't change how important matters of degree are, or how important complicity and participation at the highest levels is.

So I do definitely think we can and should blame Saddam and his vast Baathist party machinery and leadership for widespread tortures and murders, and also blame a few of our own jerks for serrious but lesser abuses. But those are two very different things.

[Glenn]

I think that soilders determined to be guilty of abuse should be turned over to the Iraqi authority. I think it would promote goodwill, and discourage future bad acts.

[Tuco]

M,

Why do you always have to mis-direct your answers to the question? Are you not capable of admitting failures without pointing out your opinion on how much good the US is doing?

IT DOESNT MATTER. Oh, by the way, you have no idea if this is "systemic US military policy" or not. Just because they tell you this is not widespread, doesn't mean its not, and vice-versa.

Tuco.

[MMMMMM]

Of course it was a failure, but it is would a mistake to get completely stuck on that. And we can expect that the investigation will address how trhis could have been allowed to happen--as it should.

My point is not to misdirect attention, but rather that, given the fact that there is an investigation and the miscreants will be punished, the focus of our moral attention should be on the greater picture. In other words, anyone deeply upset over this should realize that maybe we did a good thing overall in Iraq in getting rid of Saddam. Maybe the attention over this will cause some who have been opposed to the war, to really think about what we saved the Iraqi people from. To me, that's the most important humanitarian factor in the whole equation.

Also, while we don't know for sure that it isn't systemic in the US military, we can reasonably presume that it likely isn't.

I guess there's no way to get my point across without people thinking it is avoidance or misdirection on my part. But it isn't. I fully share the feelings of regret and disgust that you and most everyone else has over this. But the difference apparently is, I can't forget the larger picture.

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
A whole system was to blame in Saddam's case; a few assh&^%# were to blame in our case. Big difference wouldn't you agree?


[/ QUOTE ]

It is not just a few assh#%@# to blame here. A great number of soldiers in Iraq don't have any knowledge of the Geneva Convention or what it GUARANTEES prisoners held by governments that signed the document. Thus, the result was never in doubt. No prisoner training, no Geneva education, the mass use of reservists who are unprepared for their mission. All the fault of their respective US Military divisions. So, no, I don't agree. The US "system" is to blame in this case as well.

[ QUOTE ]
So I do definitely think we can and should blame Saddam and his vast Baathist party machinery and leadership for widespread tortures and murders, and also blame a few of our own jerks for serrious but lesser abuses. But those are two very different things.



[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to the prisoners who had phosphoric liquid poured on them, or were urinated on. The amount of good you do isn't a "sum" figure. You are either good, or you are not.

Tuco.