K9s and AJ offsuit

[DocHollyday]

Hi guys, I wonder about two plays I made yesterday in my casual 20$/40$ (live game, in case Elysium reads this post too! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

I get dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]:9 : [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]: in SB four limpers and I complete.

Flop: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Ok, I have TP, but this flop is obviously dangerous. Still I've got TP so I bet out to look where I am at. BB calls, and EP calls too. The other players fold.

Turn: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet again, they both just call again.

River: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, BB folds, EP calls and shows Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. BB tells me afterwards he had the nut flush. However, what do you guys about my play? Was this fine? My thinking was, that I wanted to charge everyone with a single [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for drawing to the flush. I'm aware I caught two perfect cards, but I was ready to fold to a raise. As they just called me down I still thought my hand was good. Any comments welcome.

Hand2:

I get AJoff in Cutoff. One limper to me and I raise. Button coldcalls, SB calls, BB folds, limper calls. (In addition I have to mention that these 3 players are pretty fishy, you'll see that later).

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, limper checks, I bet, Button calls, SB now checkraises, limper calls, and I threebet with TPTK. Button coldcalls and SB makes it four. Limper calls again and I fold. Button calls.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB leads out, limper raises, Button reraises all in. SB calls.

River: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, limper checks.

See their their hands (colored in white, roll over):

<font color="white"> SB had JJ, limper had QQ, button K10off </font>

Any comments about my play welcomed!

[Dante]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand2:

I get AJoff in Cutoff. One limper to me and I raise. Button coldcalls, SB calls, BB folds, limper calls. (In addition I have to mention that these 3 players are pretty fishy, you'll see that later).

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, limper checks, I bet, Button calls, SB now checkraises, limper calls, and I threebet with TPTK. Button coldcalls and SB makes it four. Limper calls again and I fold. Button calls.



[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm....there was like ~23 small bets in the pot when you folded on the flop...in that situation, I'd be hard pressed to laydown for 1 small bet. But if you were going to laydown for 1 small bet raise (if someone 4bet you), why 3bet? Unless you could put them on a set (which you obviously did), I would call...but you had a good read and laydown, lots of cards that would hurt you.

I don't see the SB playing very fishy...he called with Jacks, flopped top set, got a huge amount of bets in the pot while you were drawing dead (more or less) and the other two opponents had (collectively) 2 outs. They just happened to hit one of them.

[Gabe]

Where is this?

[elysium]

hi doc
hand 1) the call pre-flop is marginal. check-fold the flop. there isn't enough here to warrant continuing further. the flop is a complete miss. you'll need runner, runner. i know, you got runner, runner, but....fold on flop.

hand 2) call the flop and rope it.

[benping16]

"the call pre-flop is marginal."

Its not even close.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
hi doc
hand 1) the call pre-flop is marginal.

[/ QUOTE ]

If by "marginal call", you mean "very easy and you're giving up money if you don't call", well, then you're right (and you have a weird dictionary)

[ QUOTE ]
check-fold the flop. there isn't enough here to warrant continuing further. the flop is a complete miss. you'll need runner, runner. i know, you got runner, runner, but....fold on flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[ QUOTE ]


hand 2) call the flop and rope it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. 3-bet the flop. Your hand isn't strong enough to call and raise the turn.

I'm not sure I could lay it down to the 4bet, but it's an easy turn fold when it goes bet-raise.

[mikelow]

verrryyyyy interesting.

On hand one you were lucky. On hand two, what were they thinking about? You saved several bets with the worst hand.

Is that why you put the results in white? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[elysium]

hi pudley
the 3 bet on the flop is only making the weaker players play more nearly correct on the turn. although the pre-flop calls and the flop action make anything anyone does in this hand nearly correct as long as he or she doesn't fold.

so i like calling on the flop not to manipulate the pot size but rather for the reason that in this spot, i just don't see any sense in reraising. these guys aren't going anywhere. the MP and the button are locked into call mode, so they're going to try to draw out, and the SB won't fold any hand that i can't beat but will call or reraise with hands i can't beat. i'm getting correct odds to spike the turn, and i want to see how the turn develops. just maybe the MP and button are on some type of inside draw or have weak hands that they are trying to spike and who knows? you can't 3 bet the flop pudley. 3 betting serves no purpose.

on the other hand i can't see folding on the turn if my call closes the action or it's only 1 bet to me and i don't fear a button raise. i'm getting correct odds to spike the river outright, and i have correct pot odds that my hand is good if it comes 1 bet to me on the river. the greatest ev in this hand is the negative ev aroused by folding with what everyone knows is a strong hand like TPBK and encouraging them with that fold to take shots at me later. i'm calling this one down for that reason and the reasons stated above.

[DocHollyday]

Thx for all your answers guys,

I have to admit that I played pretty bad that night. It was may be my B or even C-game. First hand I have to agree, it would've been a check-fold and I see that EV in long terms will be negative.

2nd hand I actually liked my play, I think it was one of the few good moves I did that night (dropped 650$ into a pool of fish). I three-bet because first I wanted to know where I am (I knew he would fourbet if he's got a very strong hand) if he'd just call down and check the turn, I'd watch the turn and may have taken the free card. I marked their hands in white, because it was funny, that it was me raising with the almost weakest hand, got coldcalled by crap and flat called by two preflop monsters. You see what company I'm dealing with. The asian guy had Kings three times that night and he didn't raise preflop a single time. Actually the competition was so soft, that I'm a bit ashamed I didn't win. However, had also a pretty cold streak and that AJoff was one of my premium hands that night (played 3 hand in the first two hours). However, enough excuses, I may have been a fish myself that night!

By the way, the game was held in Switzerland. If you guys ever get here, just tell me, actually 20/40$ is the smallest stake you can play here and there are lots of fish (including myself! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). Thankx again for the education and good luck!

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi guys, I wonder about two plays I made yesterday in my casual 20$/40$ (live game, in case Elysium reads this post too! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

I get dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]:9 : [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]: in SB four limpers and I complete.

Flop: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Ok, I have TP, but this flop is obviously dangerous. Still I've got TP so I bet out to look where I am at. BB calls, and EP calls too. The other players fold.

Turn: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet again, they both just call again.

River: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, BB folds, EP calls and shows Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. BB tells me afterwards he had the nut flush. However, what do you guys about my play? Was this fine? My thinking was, that I wanted to charge everyone with a single [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for drawing to the flush. I'm aware I caught two perfect cards, but I was ready to fold to a raise. As they just called me down I still thought my hand was good. Any comments welcome.

Hand2:

I get AJoff in Cutoff. One limper to me and I raise. Button coldcalls, SB calls, BB folds, limper calls. (In addition I have to mention that these 3 players are pretty fishy, you'll see that later).

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, limper checks, I bet, Button calls, SB now checkraises, limper calls, and I threebet with TPTK. Button coldcalls and SB makes it four. Limper calls again and I fold. Button calls.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB leads out, limper raises, Button reraises all in. SB calls.

River: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, limper checks.

See their their hands (colored in white, roll over):

<font color="white"> SB had JJ, limper had QQ, button K10off </font>

Any comments about my play welcomed!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well DocHollyday i think you played #2 well and #1 maybe a little wrong. i have to say if that was me i would bet the flop but not the turn. i'd even kind of lean towards c-folding the flop b/c of the times people are calling you here you will be beat by hesitant two pairs, nut flushes stringing you along, and hesitant top pair/better kicker. but a bet on the flop won't be TOO expensive but its still a "consider check and fold" situation.

but a quick note on Mr. QhTh: pretty horrid play don't you think?

ELYSIUM, if you're out there reading and remember what you said about "the worst turn raise in the history of the game" well here's a candidate for "the worst flop call in the history of the game!!" if raising two players with idiot straight on turn is bad, imagine just calling with the 2nd nut flush and giving the ace a cheapy, not putting $$ in when you have it &amp; protect your hand and basically just suffer from FPS to the nth degree. (okay, now i'm exaggerating b/c there are lots of "mistake #3's" from sklansky's 8 poker mistakes where the call would cost more but i still think this particular call just sucked).

fyi, mistake #3 is "calling when you should fold" most often done on the flop w/ two cards to come when the offender has not properly calculated true or effective odds.

back to the post. Well played on hand #2. especially the 3bet/fold, you KNOW you're beat when the c-r'er caps. tptk goes mucky. the only question would be MAYBE you should fold for the c-r because that signals (unless you know the player) two pair from the blinds, t8, or set in most circumstances, all of which beat tptk. but the threebet is good if you think he'd c-r with top or middle pair to "see where he's at"

questions? comments?
-Barron