I can't ever beat Party 5/10... Here's a few hands

[Brian]

Hi guys,

For some reason, I can never ever beat Party 5/10. I play multiple 5/10 tables, which some may say isn't helping my problem, but I feel that the games are easily beatable even playing more than 1 table. I am always able to point out my opponents' mistakes, and in general it seems like most of them are just retards. Here are a few hands I am posting to keep my sanity in check from a recent session. I have no reads to supply you as the session only lasted about 150 hands (across 4 tables). It was going so poorly I had to quit. All games are ring unless otherwise stated. Here are the hands:

Hand #1: I am dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the Button in a 7 handed game. UTG opens with a raise, MP and CO cold-call. I re-raise, Blinds fold, and everyone else calls. 4 to the Flop for 13sb.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG checks, MP bets, CO raises, I re-raise. UTG folds, MP calls, and CO calls. 3 to the Turn for 22sb (11bb).

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

MP checks, CO checks, I bet. Anyone check here to avoid a potential check-raise? MP and CO call. 3 to the River for 14bb.

River: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

MP checks, CO checks, I bet, MP raises, CO folds, I call.

Results in white: <font color="white">MP has 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for the Flopped set </font>



Hand #2: I am dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the Button. UTG opens with a raise, a MP poster folds. I re-raise, and the SB, who is close to being all-in, caps it. The BB folds, and we both call. 3 to the Flop for 13sb.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets with 1 and 1/2 BB left in his stack. UTG calls. I call. 3 to the Turn for 16sb (8bb).

Turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB checks, UTG bets, I raise. SB calls all-in, UTG calls.

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG checks, I bet, UTG folds.

Results in white: <font color="white">SB has Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]</font>



Hand #3: I am dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in UTG+1. I raise, EP and MP call, everyone else folds.

Flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet, EP folds, MP calls.

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet, MP calls.

River: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, MP bets, I fold. Anyone check-fold the Turn? Anyone call the River?


Hand #4: I am dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the SB at a 7-handed table. Folded to the CO who limps, Button limps, I raise. BB folds, both call. 3 to the Flop for 7sb.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, CO calls, Button folds. 2 to the Turn for 9sb (4.5bb).

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet, CO calls. 2 to the River for 6.5bb.

River: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, CO bets, I call.


Results: <font color="white">CO has 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]</font>



Hand #5 (last one) : I am dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the Button. UTG limps, LP poster checks, I limp, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

All check to me and I bet, only UTG calls.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG checks, I bet, UTG check-raises, I fold.



Comments please? Thanks,

-Brian

[JohnShaft]

Some quick thoughts Brian.

Hand 1: I don't think there's an awful lot you can do differently. You obviously could have avoided the check raise on the River by taking the free showdown. But against most opponents I don't think you should. The bet is usually correct. I guess the only way the check might be right is if your opponents have a very high chance of waiting till the river to checkraise you AND won't call without strong hands. This will be rare.

Hand 2: I may have raised the flop. The SB could have almost anything. But it doesn't look like UTG will fold to the Raise after calling anyway. If I'd been in between the two I'd definitely have raised.
I think you know it was nothing here but bad luck. I also think, deep down, you know that you played this hand right, and you also know that you really don't need our opinion on it, because of that fact.

Hand 3: OK. Here's my first disagreement with your play. I really don't like open-raising with KQo in UTG1. I really, really don't. I'm not sure what game I'd need to be in to do this, but for sure it would have to be a game I was super comfortable with. This obviously isn't that game for you.
The reason why I don't like the open raise is for precisely the reason you found yourself in. Betting the Flop and Turn on a pretty raggy board, without even any show down potential. You bet the River because you know you can't even beat a naked Ace.
I wouldn't have open raised. And if I had I think you are better of not betting the Turn mostly.
Your way you just had to keep putting bets in with King high, hoping, mostly vainly, it was good.

Hand 4: Good Preflop raise. Good Flop bet. And at this point you're just hoping that your Ace high takes it.
You get to the River, know you can't fold a better hand, so check and call. Result, you put a bet in on every street with Ace high. Problem, yes you did lose to bad cards, but Ace high is just that. You're hoping to beat 3 players, where likely any of them is just going to stay in if they catch anything. Betting down makes it even more correct for them.
In truth it is hard to play this any differently. Check folding the Turn could be correct, but headsup, I can't argue with you taking your shot.
He had a biggie, but you know what, with your play how 'bout if he'd bet a totally raggy pair? That would have felt worse I think.

Hand 5: OK. Flop bet in LP is fine, but I don't know, I think you can really check the Turn here.


Let me offer some thoughts, from your play, and your opponents reaction to it would you say that you:
- Feel you have to keep betting because you raised Preflop, even though your big cards missed
- Don't checkraise much with your stronger hands, when your opponents would bet

If that's the case you need to set up the "When I check it doesn't mean I have nothing" play. Mostly by checkraising when you read your opponents will bet. This may at least slow them down and stop you feeling like you have to protect your big Ace high against undercards (who may or may not be drawing).

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
For some reason, I can never ever beat Party 5/10. I play multiple 5/10 tables, which some may say isn't helping my problem, but I feel that the games are easily beatable even playing more than 1 table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also I'm not a great advocate of multi-tabling. Sure it's fine if you KNOW you can beat the game, and adding any extra tables isn't going to appreciably affect your game.
But if you're playing in a game "you can't beat" beat one table first, then add more.

I believe by about 5/10 online earn has as much to do with opponent specific knowledge as anything else. I think this is why David Ross mutli-tabled 3/6 (I know he's 5/10 SH now). So if you're playing so many tables you can't be observant of what mistakes particular opponents are making you can't exploit them. One guys Check is another guys Raise.

[Brian]

Hi John,

I agree completely with your sentiments. Some of these hands may seem like a breeze for you, but when you can't seem to win a hand despite playing multiple tables, you begin to question a lot of your play. I have dropped back down to 3/6 for the time being, a limit at which I am very comfortable and quite sure what my win rate is. Despite this, I am still losing a lot of money... Even though the cards at 5/10 aren't tied to the cards at 3/6, it is becoming apparent I am just in the middle of a bad run.

I do use the check-raise feature quite often, but being that I was on the Button in 3/5 of these hands, and in the other 2 I flopped squat, I never really got to show it off. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] 5/10 is quite aggressive, and I have noticed that it is rare that a Flop is checked around; therefore, I am actually check-raising quite often.

As far as open-raising with KQo is concerned, I think that it is a matter of the table you are sitting at and how you are comfortable playing the hand. MajorKong told me that in the long run, it doesn't really make much of a difference whether you raise with it or just limp with it in EP. But, to be sure that you know the hand plays very differently depending on what you do with it pre-Flop. The table was relatively loose, which means I would normally lean towards limping with it; I don't want to play it out of position against multiple opponents in a raised pot. But I decided to raise it anyways, because that's almost always what I do with it and how I am comfortable playing it. I think that I should have just limped, though, because I am having difficulty with the limits and it was a loose table.

Thanks for your thoughts.

-Brian

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me offer some thoughts, from your play, and your opponents reaction to it would you say that you:
- Feel you have to keep betting because you raised Preflop, even though your big cards missed
- Don't checkraise much with your stronger hands, when your opponents would bet

If that's the case you need to set up the "When I check it doesn't mean I have nothing" play. Mostly by checkraising when you read your opponents will bet. This may at least slow them down and stop you feeling like you have to protect your big Ace high against undercards (who may or may not be drawing).


[/ QUOTE ]

Let me heartily endorse this statement by Mr. JohnShaft. These are the exact two things (but really, they're one thing) that I've been trying to incorporate into my game since my "break" (e.g. losing streak) and my results have been much better at these limits, where your opponents are still poor, but at least capable of picking up on betting patterns.

I also think that you *can* raise with a wider variety of hands (e.g. KQo in EP) if you're incorporating these sorts of techniques, since they make it significantly cheaper when you miss your flops.

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: OK. Here's my first disagreement with your play. I really don't like open-raising with KQo in UTG1.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll second this point.

[anatta]

I don't like raising KQo in EP either for the reasons JS stated. You feel obligated to bet a harmless flop and turn and then you are screwed. Unless real tight game, I think I am going to dump it from EP. Maybe go ahead and &lt;&lt;gasp&gt;&gt; limp...

[Brian]

Anyone care to comment on betting the Flop and Turn with the A6s hand? Or the AQo hand?

-Brian

[DeuceKicker]

I'm not super fond of betting A6s in that situation. I know many would say to bet since nobody else has, but I think your other hands have shown that you're not going to get everyone to fold. If you want to bet the flop (on a paired board?) OK, but I'd really check the turn. A high card has come out and you have a chance for a free card to pair your Ace if you check.

Nothing much to say about the AQ hand. Make a note that CO plays 64o in the CO and be glad he didn't do the right thing and check-raise you on the turn.

[zamora]

hi,
excellent post.
first of all i think that you must have the patient to limit yourself to one table until you comfortably beat the game. getting reads and picking up on betting patterns can be the difference between a profit and a loss.

second, it seems to me that you mentally comitt yourself to the pot even though you flop nothing. even if you think that your opponents are retards, they are playing with their own money. when they cold call preflop and then call a flop bet they usually have something. after all, they must know that you have descent cards since you raised it preflop.

here is my take on the hands.
#1. check it down on the river. u have already 3-bet twice and they are still hanging around. they must know that you have at least AK. (i know that this is easy to say since i know the result. i might have bet this river too.)

#2 played it fine. might want to raise the flop and get a free card if a blank falls on the turn.

#3 i wouldn´t have raised it preflop. when you flop zero, except for two backdoors, this is a check fold situation.

#4 not much to do here. just lucky that you didn't loose more.

#5 what you are looking for is a flush draw, two pair or maybe an ace. you did not get any. why waste $15 on that hand?

take care
zamora