Two too strong - recovering from a bad run

[Ulysses]

So, after an incredibly good streak in my first three months of online poker, I hit an almost unbelievably bad run in my last few sessions. Beats that you wouldn't believe, except of course you would and have all had them. But you know how it feels. Anyway, I had a nice session to get me back on track this evening, but the bad run had me questioning my play and I wasn't playing as confidently as I normally do. Here are a couple that I think I might have played too strong. Comments?

Hand 1


Very loose, slightly aggressive Party 10-20 6-max

Button (bad aggressive player) raises. I just call in SB w/ AsJd. BB folds.

** Dealing Flop ** : [ Js, 3d, Ks ]

I bet. Button calls.

** Dealing Turn ** : [ Kc ]

I check. Button bets. I checkraise. Button 3-bets. I ... call?

** Dealing River ** : [ 3h ]

I check.

Hand 2

Somewhat aggressive Party 10-20 6-max

** Dealing down cards **

Super-aggressive EP idiot open-raises. Reasonable button 3-bets. I cap in SB w/ QsQh. BB cold-calls. EP and Button call.

** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3s, 3d, 4s ]

I bet. BB calls. EP calls. Button raises. I 3-bet. BB calls. EP folds. Button caps. I call, BB calls.

** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ks ]

I ... bet? BB calls. Button folds.

** Dealing River ** : [ 8d ]

I ... bet?

Thoughts?

[karlson]

Hand 1

Hm... so you played preflop and flop somewhat bizzarely, and got an aggressive reaction out of the aggressive idiot. Well, that's what you get, I guess you have to call him down now, seeing as there are plenty of players who, when you bet out on the flop, will put you on a draw and never change this read.
The more I think about this, the more I'm not sure. I guess he was the type that keeps his aggression on later streets, or I'm sure you would have found the fold to the three-bet.
Why on earth did you not 3-bet preflop though? Or check-raise the flop for that matter, once you just called. Were you planning on three-betting the flop?
I don't really have these "betting out of turn" moves in my repertoire, so I haven't really been in this position. I guess as I move up, there will be more players who just check the flop behind me.

Hand 2.

No issues with pre-turn play. I think that the turn bet is probably good, and the river bet is very iffy. Yes, he'll pay off with TT or JJ, but it seems more likely that he has a draw, either a busted one, or one that he slowplayed on the turn.

[mike l.]

hand 1 you play perfect when you play it strong but (like most of us) you are playing awful when you play it weak (calling the 3 bet on the turn given your description). you are too good a player to not find that laydown.

hand 2 is perfect except you should go for a checkraise on the river. you want dumb dumb aggro to bluff the river with nothing, make a dumb aggro bet with very little, and call your checkraise. he will doo all of that a lot. find the checkraise! juice those foolios!

[elysium]

hi ulysses
hand 1) you miss a pre-flop reraise.....and a flop check-raise. check-call the river.

hand2) you played it fine. on the turn, you're doing whatever is necessary to win the pot. if your behind a K, that's too bad.

[Ulysses]

Hand 1

Why didn't I 3-bet pre-flop? I really don't know. On the flop I bet for no particular reason. I thought there was a good chance button would raise w/ anything and I would 3-bet. After that, we'd have to see what's what. As for my betting v. a checkraise here, well, I try to mix that up quite a bit. One thing that lets me do is steal some pots w/ one small bet when both of us completely whiff. I like that better than trying to steal w/ a checkraise followed by leading the turn.

Anyway, he calls the flop and I put him most likely on nothing or a monster - set of Kings or Jacks. Since I bet out, I think he's going to put me on not much.

OK. Now another King. Now it seems pretty unlikely that he has 3 Jacks or 4 Kings. Maybe he has a small pocket pair or something. I'm sure he puts me on nothing, so I go for the checkraise. Perfect. But now he 3-bets. That was unexpected. But doesn't my pre-flop call, flop bet, and turn checkraise seem fishy here? I could easily see him trying a resteal or value betting w/ something like JT. Anyway, I really don't think my checkraise was all that great if I'm not going to 4-bet or fold here. Checkraising and calling a 3-bet just seems wrong given this line.

Anyway, I immediately shifted from too strong to too weak and just called. He checked behind on the river and it turns out he had A7o.

Hand 2

Not so sure about my turn bet. But the Qs in my hand gave me a little confidence that I might have some backup if behind now.

Anyway, once I'm just called on the turn, I think mike l. got it right. Go for a river checkraise.

I bet and surprisingly got called by AcTs. I don't think that'll happen most times and I'm more likely to get a bet by checking to him.

[Philuva]

For Hand #2.

I have found most players these days will check behind on the river with an A playing shorthanded, but will often call a bet on the river with just A high.

I have stopped trying to induce bluffs when I have a pair an expect I am upgainst an A and started making more value bets.

[Gabe]

Hand 1

I think your turn check-raise was a sloppy running bad mistake.

In a typical game, one would almost always reraise from the SB against an obvious steal. Against a very aggressive opponent, it’s maybe better to wait until the flop. Often check-raising flops that miss you. Sometimes slow playing flops you hit. (The only speed bump may be the BB, but with any luck he’ll fold, before or after the flop.)

The flop hit you. You’re ready to let the aggressive opponent throw chips at you.

Then something went haywire on the turn. You check raise. What happened to our plan of letting him bet 9d 8d the whole way? If he has a hand, he’s a little more likely to have a K than a J. Even an extremely aggressive player raises with more K’s than J’s. If he has a draw, he would bet it when he busts anyway. He will often bet a decent J on the river for value, too.

About the only time you come out ahead with this move is when he puts you on a check-raise semi-bluff, and calls on the turn and river with a small pair or a weak J that he would have checked on the end.

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
(calling the 3 bet on the turn given your description). you are too good a player to not find that laydown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t necessarily agree. The problem is that there are some big draws possible. Some times his opponent may reraise with a draw. The real problem, however, is that no one would check-raise as a pure bluff in this spot. Ulysses’ opponent knows he either is semi-bluffing or has a strong hand. If Ulysses folds, his opponent will know he folded a strong hand. This is one of the reasons I hated the turn check-raise.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing that lets me do is steal some pots w/ one small bet when both of us completely whiff. I like that better than trying to steal w/ a checkraise followed by leading the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]
I like that.

[ QUOTE ]
Since I bet out, I think he's going to put me on not much.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why 6 max is the only way to play hold'em [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't think my checkraise was all that great if I'm not going to 4-bet or fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have a problem with people thinking along this line... sometimes u can call and win, it's pretty sweet too.

Anyway, great post! It really brings light back into my game, thanks!

See you at the tables.

Kenny

ps. thanks for replying to my silly post on Hold'em forum. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[mike l.]

i misread the game description "Very loose, slightly aggressive" as the player description instead of "(bad aggressive player)".

now i still think checkraise is the right play on the turn, but capping the turn and then checking the river no matter what comes so bad aggressive player can bluff is the correct play.

oh and as for your comments about checkraising not being good because then when you fold they know you folded a good hand yadda yadda: youre way overthinking things. he's playing against bad players who are not paying that much attention.