Horrible Call!

SlyAK · #1 12-16-2003, 01:37 PM

We are down to 3 at TGC $5 sng. I am short-stacked in the big blind with T1800 before posting, (Blinds 160/320). The button has about T4500, and the SB had about T3700 before posting. The button folds and the SB completes. I am dealt 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the BB. I go all-in for my remaining 1480 chips. I am quickly called by the SB who shows.................. 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
I guess he figured he would make either a straight or a flush!

As for the results, he was drawing dead by the river, which happened to be a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] completing the set.

Ok, so how can he call with that?? Even if he thinks I am on a complete bluff-steal, he cant really think that 74s is good here. I can understand moving all-in with a very poor hand hoping the other people fold, (if you are short-stacked, that was my post about going all-in w/ 73o yesterday). But doesnt it take a much better hand to CALL an all-in??? I am sure that a lot of this has to do with playing at $5 tables, I will probably move up once I have more experience, but I still cant believe how bad some of these players are!!

Sly

Kurn, son of Mogh · #2 12-16-2003, 02:14 PM

Even if he thinks I am on a complete bluff-steal, he cant really think that 74s is good here.

His call isn't as bad as you think. It's small -EV against a random hand and you don't need a pair to move in here. Against Axo where x<7 and not a 4, he's actually getting proper odds here. He'd be just under a 7-5 dog getting just over 7-5 from the pot. Even against a random 2-overcard hand, he's only an 8-5 dog. I probably don't make that call with stack sizes what they are, but that would ultimately depend on how aggressive you and the other player have been up to this point.

Scooterdoo · #3 12-16-2003, 02:31 PM

Why would he call:

1) he is already in the money and is in a hurry to finish the tournament (seriously, I've been in situations like this where my time has run out and I need to go)

2) against a random hand his odds are not bad and he figures he still has some chips to play with if he loses. Given that your the short-stack he probably assumes you could have a range of hands from A2 through A6 (where he wouldn't be much of a dog) through any two overcards where he still has an okay chance a decent pot odds.

3) it's only a $5 tournament so he decides to be overly aggressive to get to 1st place given that there's not much money at stake.

Another thing to consider is that it's important for the 2nd position player to be the one to knock you out because if the 1st position player knocks you out he will have a sizable chip advantage. I'm not suggesting I would have made the call, but this is an important consideration when you're one of 3 left and you're in 2nd position.

Prickly Pete · #4 12-16-2003, 03:02 PM

Kurn and Scooter both give good reasons about why the call wasn't all that bad. But I'd be shocked if the player involved could've given those reasons.

SlyAK · #5 12-16-2003, 05:22 PM

Thanks for the feedback... apparently it wasnt as bad a call as I thought, although I would never call an all-in there. I have another question. If the tables are turned and you are one of the 2 big stacks at the table each w/ about twice as much money as the small stack, (who is let's say reasonably aggressive), what type of hands would you look for to call his all-in with??? Personally, I think that any pair, Ax, and JT up would be good, (possibly Kx suited too). Obviously the key is not to let him 'bleed' too many chips away, but not calling his all-in when he is a big favorite. Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,
Sly

IdiotSavant · #6 12-16-2003, 06:18 PM

Your initial impression is correct. This is a horrible call.

The call price is about 1.5 to 1.

1. If you moved in with any pair above 88, he is about 4 to 1 dog

2. If he you moved in with overcards above 98 suited, he is a little less than a 2 to 1 dog

3. If you moved in with any overcard and a 7 or 4. he is a bit over of a 2 to 1 dog.

4. The only hand that he's getting a +ev on his call is if you are holding 22, 33.

In addition, he's calling away 50% of his stack and severely hurting the chances of getting 2nd or 1st place. Lastly, to paraphrase fossilman, chips when you are near or at the money have greater value than in earlier rounds.

Now, if he raised preflop 3x or 4x preflop to try to steal the blinds, then he would have been correct to call your all-in bet.

CrisBrown · #7 12-16-2003, 08:42 PM

Hi SlyAK,

With only twice his stack, I'm not calling his all-in without a big pair, honestly. I'd rather preserve and extend my stack leverage with persistent steals than with loose calls that can cut me in half in one hand.

With a 3:1 or better edge, I'll add JJ, TT, AK, or even KQ or AQ in my calling hands. With a 5:1 or better edge, I'll add AJ, AT, KJ, KT, QJs, QTs, JTs, and pairs 88 or higher.

Basically, more dominant my stack, the more I can afford to make a loose call vs. an all-in. But I'd rather steal with KT and get an all-in call from JJ than flat call an all-in with KT and see him turn over JJ.

Cris