A Hand From My First Ever 20/40 Session

ML4L · #1 11-03-2003, 10:14 PM

Hey all,

Having finally gotten up the courage and the bankroll, I decided to try my hand today at 20/40. I do all of my online play at Paradise, and when scouting the games out this week, they seemed very beatable; some tough players, but a fair number of donors as well... But anyway, I had been at the table for about 45 minutes when this hand came up.

Very loose, very aggressive player open-raises in EP. To this point, I had also seen him open-raise in EP with A8o and JTo. He plays almost half of his hands and puts a lot of money in with them after the flop. Folded around to the SB, who is a seemingly decent/knowledgable player that is currently short-stacked ($132 left after calling the raise). I am in the BB, where I call with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The flop comes:

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB checks, and I check as well, quite certain that EP will bet, as he has done every time after his numerous preflop raises. I'm not yet sure whether I will check-raise the flop or wait until the turn. But, it becomes a moot point; EP checks as well...! Turn comes:

5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB checks, I check again, EP bets, SB now check-raises, I think for a second and decide to three-bet.

All comments are greatly appreciated.

ML4L

mikelow · #2 11-03-2003, 10:21 PM

Bet the flop, hand is easier to play. Now, if SB bets on the turn, raise.

But the way the hand went, it looks like SB has two pair. So I would just call on the turn.

pilamsolo · #3 11-03-2003, 10:54 PM

I like your play here. If the SB has two pair, you've paid the same price as calling his raise and a river bet, but gain an extra bet if you hit your flush (it's also possible the SB is trying to isolate your EP friend and you already have the best hand.)

How'd it end up?

karlson · #4 11-03-2003, 11:20 PM

This seems like a really interesting hand.

It seems obvious to me that there is much higher than usual chance that UTG flopped a huge hand (I'm thinking set, but I've seen people slowplay AK here). After all, he did just check the flop for the first time in a decade. If this is the case, it'll go to three or maybe even four bets, in which case folding actually becomes right.
He could in theory have nothing. Or perhaps he has a hand like KK or QQ (bad (even bad-aggressive)) players often go passive when an ace flops with this hand. I really don't believe that he checked no pair with this board and then bet the turn.
If the SB is sharp (meaning he thinks like I do [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]) then he is not raising without a hand that you beat except maybe A2-A6. On the other hand, you're drawing quite live against most holdings.
So I call. Now look for what UTG does. If he folds, it means my read was completely off, and SB had it right. In this case, he could have been raising with very little, and I'll probably bet the river (I can see him checking but calling with a 9). If it goes to three or four bets, oh well, pray for a diamond (I'll also see a showdown if a 7 or an A comes off).

karlson · #5 11-03-2003, 11:23 PM

I can't imagine betting the flop unless I knew UTG would raise with any two, and I could make it three bets. Otherwise, the check-raise seems automatic.

karlson · #6 11-06-2003, 05:56 AM

Pity you didn't get more responses. Usually this means that no one knows what to do, and that might mean that it doesn't matter what you do. Occasionally it'll mean that it's incredibly obvious what to do. If that's the case, maybe someone will tell me.

Anyway, what happened?

bugstud · #7 11-06-2003, 06:14 AM

manaics not betting is generally a giant slowplaying a monster sign to me, unless they're ultra-tricky. If it's a set monster, you're not so hot. If it's AK-monster, I like the play.

Philuva · #8 11-06-2003, 03:00 PM

I would have bet the flop. Hopefully the maniac raises behind you and now you put the SB to a decision:

1. If the SB folds, assuming the maniac will bluff on every round with a worse hand but might fold if bet into with a worse, I would call him down. Unles I hit 2-pair, then I would put in a check-raise on the river.

2. If the SB 3-bets on the flop, I would probably lay it down.

Given the way you played it, I think you have to call or 3-bet. The problem is SB could realize the maniac is betting light and check raise to get you out and end up heads up with a medium strength hand against the maniac. So you could very easily be ahead of the SB. Though as others pointed out, when maniacs check the flop, that can scream huge hand. That is why I favor betting the flop to avoid this situation.
Given your situation, I almost favor calling here rather than raising. If it gets 3-bet and 4-bet back to you, you probably have an easy fold.

ML4L · #9 11-06-2003, 06:44 PM

Hey karlson,

Sorry to keep you in suspense; I went out of town for a couple days... SB called my three-bet, and I prayed hard for a diamond. Luckily, the river was the beautiful 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. He bet all-in for his last $12, I called with the nuts and dragged the pot. He showed A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for flopped top two...

My thought process on the turn went something like this. My options were:

a) fold
b) call and fold the river if I didn't improve
c) call and call the river if I didn't improve
d) reraise

Things that led me to choose d):

1) I felt that my hand was far too strong to fold, especially given the size of the pot (I was getting exactly 3-1 to call).

2) With regard to what I would do on the river, I put myself in the shoes of the SB. Given the way that EP had been playing, if I were him, I would check-raise with any ace, any nine, and most pocket pairs, possibly with a diamond draw too. So, I decided that I was going to have to probably put in another bet on the river, even if I didn't improve. Plus, if my hand was somehow good, he might check the river (I would check behind), meaning that I missed a bet.

3) He only had $12 left, meaning that if I was far behind, he couldn't charge me another full bet for my diamond draw.

4) There is a chance that I could get A8, AT, maybe even AJ to fold, thinking that it was drawing to three outs (particularly if EP held one of those hands, but I don't see him checking an ace on the flop).

So, given all of those considerations, I thought that a reraise was pretty clear. But, looking back, I thought that maybe I wasn't thinking about the hand the right way, so I decided to post it...

More comments are definitely appreciated.

ML4L

ML4L · #10 11-06-2003, 06:47 PM

Hey Phil,

If I called the two cold and the EP made it three bets, SB could only raise $12 more. I think I would have to call given my nut draw and the size of the pot. Even if it would be two more full bets back to me, the pot is so large that a call is correct even if I knew I was up against AA...

ML4L