Overthinking yourself out of the pot.

ArchAngel71857 · #1 07-23-2003, 05:53 PM

Ok, here is a good example of overcomplicating things.

1/2 at party. don't really have a read on anyone yet, but seems like a small bit tighter than most party games. maybe 1 or two less people to the flop.

in the CO and get J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, player to my left cold calls, I reraise, BB caps, three of us call.

Flop comes reverse devil 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP calls, I'm thinking because of preflop I am up against another pocket pair that beats me. I dont think anyone would open raise with less than 99, or maybe TT. I also am wary of BB going for the check raise, and contemplate folding. The pot is big enough however, that i call hoping to turn either a 9, J, or a card to give me more info (maybe an A, K, or Q to let me know where i stand). So i call as does BB.

Turn is 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . BB bets, UTG+1 raises, MP cold calls. Here I think, I am definitely beat, if not by PF raiser, by PF capper. Maybe BB has A9? maybe MP has A9/K9/T9 and just sucks. maybe i suck and should give my money to a worthy cause. maybe i should just start mugging people. I think at least UTG+1 and BB have me beat with a bigger boat or maybe the quads. I fold.

River comes 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]. Checked around.

MP who called the whole was showed down K4o. UTG+1 who open raised lays down the unbeatable J8o. BB capper took down the pot with Q5s. now my toe hurts because i kicked the chair. my only consolation is that i will someday meet these outlaws again, and afterwards sleep on a big pile of cash.

Now to the critique. Would you have folded the turn. My biggest problem is my flop play. I feel like i overthought myself out of aggression and i should have jsut raised then. Even so, i don't know if it would have done any good. if someone is raising PF with J8o, i'm never putting him on that in a million years. How would you have played the streets differently.

-AA

lil' · #2 07-23-2003, 06:01 PM

Raise the flop. There is no reason to automatically put the raiser on a hand that beats yours. It may have changed things.

As for the turn, yes, the raise looks scary, but he could have a 5 or a smaller pocket pair. I think you gave up too soon. You said you thought you were behind to the pre-flop raiser, but you'll never know since you didn't ever test him.

Dynasty · #3 07-23-2003, 06:17 PM

my only consolation is that i will someday meet these outlaws again, and afterwards sleep on a big pile of cash.

Everyone here seems to say this even when they play as badly as you played this hand. You don't seem to have any advantage over these opponents beyond starting hand selection. If you're lucky, that will allow you to break-even. They completely outplayed you. Your confidence of beating them in the future seems quite unsupported by the evidence.

slavic · #4 07-23-2003, 07:01 PM

When I see a 3 to a quad board, to me that means we start the Pre-flop again. My big pocket pairs are now huge monsters and should be bet as such. If I'm about to lose to quads we'll know it in a second or two. Ask yourself how many hands bring in a 9 when there is a raise and reraise preflop?

Now of the flop is AAA you need to watch out a bit. It's still not likely the A is out there, but it's a lot more likely than a 9 in this spot.

GuyOnTilt · #5 07-23-2003, 07:14 PM

Preflop: Good reraise

Flop: Horrible call. Raise exactly 100% of the time here. You have to be confident that you are ahead here, and charge overcards the max to draw.

Turn: Raise the flop and you won't be faced with these situations.

Horribly played. Don't be so confident you can beat these opponents if this is your normal playing style.

JohnShaft · #6 07-23-2003, 07:58 PM

Everyone's pretty much summed this up.
Why does UTG need a pocket pair 10's and above? UTG raise even in a solid game is more likely to be AK/AQ. If he has them it's still very likely he is betting out as he is ahead of everything but a PP (and drawing very live to that). He's going nowhere.

Scared about the BB checkraising? Raise, if he reraises you then consider your options. This is a classic "raise the flop for information".

It's 1/2 at Party Arch on a 999 board. They aren't all staying in with monsters. It's 1/2 at Party. They're just trying to catch Kings, Queens, Aces to outdraw you. Allow for their horrible play at times. This is where knowing your players is really helpful.
PS. I hope you took notes on the players involved after this hand?

slamdunkpro · #7 07-23-2003, 09:04 PM

Did you just suffer a bad beat recently?

This is what looks to me like "whipped puppy syndrome"

It's 1/2 not 20/40 AND YOU FLOPPED A BOAT. Most likely they have short pairs or paint with rag and are just looking to catch a boat.

Make'em pay for that river card and really feel em out.

Lee Jones says "if you suffer a bad beat with a monster hand in low limit and you don't lose a lot you didn't bet hard enough"

thwang99 · #8 07-24-2003, 02:31 AM

"This is what looks to me like "whipped puppy syndrome""

How very true, this is a real disease that occurs in poker. I think when you're on a losing streak, the best thing to do is play tighter but stay aggressive, yes hard to do when you're playing with a beaten mentality (not just that session for say for 2 weeks). - Tony

ArchAngel71857 · #9 07-24-2003, 09:28 PM

This is what looks to me like "whipped puppy syndrome"

lol. how true. I did not have a bad beat at this particular session, but more along the lines of some weird stuff happening. What makes me so mad is that the reason for this "bad beat" is me. The only thing that prevented me from winning this pot was me.

j.k. · #10 07-25-2003, 01:35 AM

I understand that most everyone on this forum worships the ground you walk on, but is that reason to be such an ass?
Almost every reply I see you make is condescending and rude.
I thought this forum was intended for constructive discussion, not arrogant attacks. If he played the hand badly, explain why. Advice from someone with as much experience as you could be very helpful. Why just berate the poster and add nothing of use?
j.k.