4-bet 7th heads up?

[rtrombone]

Commerce 15-30. I'm playing this old Chinese guy heads up at the must-move table.

This guy is pretty decent. He can be tricky. Earlier when our game was full, I'd raised at 3rd with split queens and bet the whole way. I checked at 6th when one guy made an open pair because I put him on two pair (this guy was pretty loose). At 7th the open-pair guy bet and the old guy raised. I'd made a 6-high straight at 7th. I thought for a long time. I knew the old guy was capable of raising to drive out a better hand behind him. The thing is, he had three spades showing and spades were very live. I wasn't sure that he'd call me the whole way with a pair like the loose guy would. I finally folded. It turns out this was a mistake because the old guy did in fact have only two pair and was trying to make me lay down queens up. Fortunately, the loose guy had an ace-high flush and took it down. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

I also later called the old guy down twice with a pair of deuces (once heads up, once when it was 3-handed) when I put him on a flush draw. Both times I was right and my deuces were good.

So yeah, he can be tricky.

It's funny, when playing heads up he kept asking if I wanted to increase the ante to $5. I kept declining. This was my first time playing stud heads up. Plus, this would have increased my variance and I try to keep my variance as low as possible.

Most hands we'd both come in for the bring-in. Every once in a while someone would complete. About half the time, the other guy would call the completed bet. Not very many hands went to showdown.

Here's the hand in question. The details are fuzzy; hopefully this won't hinder your guys' analyses too much. I forget my doorcard, but it wasn't consequential. So I have (J 6) x. The old guy had a 4 doorcard, I think. We both come in for $5. I get another jack at 4th; the old guy gets a queen. He checks and I bet with (J 6) x J. He calls with 4 Q. 5th brings me a blank and the old guy another 4. He checks to me. I bet with (J 6) x J x and he calls with 4 Q 4. My board was pretty ragged. The jack was the highest card I had showing, I think, and I didn't have any possible draws, really. At 6th I catch another 6. The old guy gets an 8. Now he bets into me with 4 Q 4 8. I raise with (J 6) x J x 6. He 3-bets! He's got some kind of hand here. I don't think he would do this unless he could beat jacks up. I just call.

I catch the best possible card at 7th, a third jack. The old guy bets with his 4 Q 4 8 board. I raise with (J 6) x J x 6 (J). He 3-bets again! [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

What do you think?

[Chris Nichelson]

I think that he has three fours or fours full and would go at least one more bet with him.

[patrick dicaprio]

i would definitely raise again.but if he reraises again i would just call.

Pat

[banditbdl]

I think I'd just call, I suspect you were getting slowplayed by a monster (quads or Queens full) earlier. His 5th street check and call and then coming out strong when he catches a seemingly harmless eight on 6th street screams big hand. I guess there's a chance he has a smaller full house than you, but after making it 3-bets on both 6th (who knows how many he might have gone if you kept coming back at him) and now 7th I would just call. Also, if you are beat there is no way he's not making it 5 bets.

[MRBAA]

A four bet is definitely in order. Heads up, fours full is a monster. You didn't pair your door card, so he could even be raising with just trip fours. When you four bet, you're telling him you've got fours full beat. So if he five bets, I'd just call.

[rtrombone]

This hand is interesting because the raising war did not begin at 7th. So it's not just a question of 4-betting with a big boat heads up. Had both of us woken up at 7th, a 4-bet would have been automatic. I had to consider the action on 6th and its bearing on 7th street, though.

I'd been betting ever since I caught the jack on 4th. He knows it's reasonable for me to have jacks. When he bets into me at 6th with open 4s and I raise him, I'm effectively telling him I have at least two pair, most likely jacks up. Now he 3-bets. I don't think he has just queens up because he would have bet or check-raised me earlier with a pair of queens (although maybe I'm wrong about this; it wouldn't be so bad to slowplay queens when you put your opponent on jacks). But he has at least queens up. Maybe trip 4s. Maybe even a boat.

At 7th he bets and I raise him again. I'm telling him that I've improved. Or that I've got a monster and decided to get cute and raise 7th instead of 4-betting 6th. Either way, I've got queens up and trip 4s beat. He 3-bets again! Now, I put him on one of four hands: fours full, eights full, queens full or quad fours.

Whether a call or 4-bet is proper depends on the likelihood of me having the best hand. The problem is that if he has either queens full or quad fours, he is certainly going to five-bet, as he probably figures me for jacks full at best. And I'm going to call the 5-bet, because, well, I have jacks full. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] If he has fours full or eights full, he will only call my 4-bet. I stand to win one more bet when I'm good and lose two when I'm not. So he has to have fours or eights full at least 2/3 of the time for a 4-bet to be +EV.

As I've stated above, it should be clear to him I have a boat at 7th. The only question is how big. Yet he raises me again. This confused me. Would he do this with fours full? Wasn't he worried that I'd improved to jacks full? And the more I thought about it, the more I feared queens full. Concealed queens is a hand he would've slowplayed. Concealed eights is a hand with which you complete at 3rd heads up, right?

So I just called. He had eights full and my hand was good.

I'm still not sure my call was correct. But I don't think it was awful, either.

[MRBAA]

Not awful at all, given that your read was essentially correct -- he held a big hand, not just two pair or trips.

[patrick dicaprio]

it is easy to overthink a hand like this. but to not raise again here is worrying too much about losing money and not enough about making money.most of teh time players with full houses give no thought to what the other guy has.

Pat

[Wombat6]

i think he has trip 4's

I would of taken the freebie on 5th
check called on 6 th and hammered him on the river.

But hey thats me.

Wombat6

[Wombat6]

Do you often see Monsters under your bed ?