99, spew, fancy or clean?

#1 12-01-2005, 02:33 PM

Villian1 is 30/10/1.67
Villian2 is aggressive over a few hands

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 4 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

TheHip41 · #2 12-01-2005, 02:37 PM

I don't think this will work often enough against good players. I think you will called down or river raised by a better hand too often.

#3 12-01-2005, 03:26 PM

I would have check-folded if UTG+1 bet. Both her check and CO's bet seemed weak to me and I decided to pounce on it. I would have folded to a 3-bet on the flop, and the bet on the turn was the last I was putting in. Can this even justify it?

W. Deranged · #4 12-01-2005, 03:35 PM

This play actually has some pretty interesting things going on in it. Basically, UTG+1's check indicates an extreme distaste for a scary flop, and you know he almost certainly can't call two cold on the flop. So the play comes down to whether you have Villain2 beat enough, or whether you can make him fold enough, to make the play worthwhile. The fact that he's aggressive and may well just be auto-betting this flop when checked to makes this play come to mind.

But I think you are forgetting a very important fact: pot-size.

The pot is 4 BB when you attempt to undertake this coup. You are committing basically to 2 BB most of the time, and sometimes more depending on turn and river cards, with a hand that is very often going to be behind. So this needs to work really a minimum of a third of the time to be viable. Considering that the board hits a lot of hands that Villain2 might cold-call with, whether in the form of a pair or a draw (if he has a hand like JT you will have a hard time taking this pot down considering his huge number of outs, the likelihood you might get semi-bluffed, etc...), and considering that Villain1 some percentage of the time is slowplaying a monster, and considering you have so little chance of improving, I think the play is misguided.

The concept is a good one. I think the times to use it are in bigger pots, often on the later streets, when you have a hand that is a bit more likely to actually be the best and there is less uncertainty with fewer streets left to play.

#5 12-01-2005, 03:37 PM

Lets take a detailed look at the hand. Preflop I would often threebet this, especially with a loose cold caller in between but certainly you are often against 3 or four overcards (and a % of the time) against a bigger pair. Coupled with your position I see the argument for just a call clearly. This is probably one of those preflop spots that almost certainly doesn't matter very much.

The flop check is indeed suspect; but what kind of suspect? It makes me see visions of KKK, QQQ, KQ more than a10 or a9. This is in part based on the fact that I would bet that flop with anything I raise UTG, even JJ (and KK for that matter), with the possible exception of AQ. None the less, many weak players will check this flop three handed without the goods.

Certainly, if you are to proceed with this hand, a raise is the clear action, because UTG can easily have 10 outs against you (A10), have you beat (JJ, 10-10) and if he checked the flop with these hands he is folding them for two bets. Also, given villian one's low aggression factor, any further action from him is certainly a big set and you can fold barring a 9 on the turn.

The turn goes without saying, you must bet here, because a fair % of the time your opponent will fold a queen or 1010. So the only really questionable street is the flop raise. It's cute, but it's not a move I would make, and it's effectiveness depends entirely on how often CO is bluffing here. Most players don't like to bluff into that sort of flop against an UTG raiser but there are many aggressive habitual bluffers. It doesn't look bad but it's not a move I make (nor intend to look into :P).

TheHip41 · #6 12-01-2005, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have check-folded if UTG+1 bet. Both her check and CO's bet seemed weak to me and I decided to pounce on it. I would have folded to a 3-bet on the flop, and the bet on the turn was the last I was putting in. Can this even justify it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Disregard my post, I thought the PRF bet, CO call, THEN you c/r them both. That would be bad [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

As it is, I'm still inclined to fold here. PRF love to flop sets then check the flop. Even if you get the PRF to fold TT, JJ, you still cant make a move on the CO without a read. He's not folding a K here, ever. So maybe if the PRF has JJ, TT, AND, the CO has only a draw or a weak Q, then maybe he won't call you down.

I'd probalby just fold the flop

WillMagic · #7 12-01-2005, 03:55 PM

Results make me unhappy.

I guess your play is good, but I can't help but be biased by the fact that you won.

Will

#8 12-01-2005, 03:59 PM

Getting 5.5:1 preflop against two aggressive players, I don't think I can fold this.

CO in this hand had been fairly aggressive recently, so I figured that there was some chance that this was a bet with a marginal hand. UTG+1 is fairly agressive postflop as well, so I figured there was a decent chance her check was weak. As for the size of the pot, I don't think 2:1 is bad to try to get away with a bluff. Generally speaking, I would only make this move in a pot with three players or fewer, as that significantly increases the chance of success. In a larger pot, it would be more likely that I'm beat, along with a lower chance of scampering away with the pot.

#9 12-02-2005, 12:15 AM

Given the preflop play and flop play, it would appear that CO is trying to steal after UTG+1 showed weakness and UTG+1 had AT or AJ. Good CR to knock him out.

One question though, what happens if CO calls the turn bet? c/f the river?

#10 12-02-2005, 12:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One question though, what happens if CO calls the turn bet? c/f the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definately.