Let me deal with my doubts, calling turn raises HU

friends · #1 11-23-2005, 04:33 PM

SB: PT autorated him as fish with 45% VPT acc. to his 35 hands.

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 3 folds, CO calls, 1 folds, SB calls, 1 folds.

Flop: (7.00 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero ?

Final Pot: 9.50 BB.

I know, he may be a fish, that means passive postflop. But I've seen so many rocks which behavior changes dramatically when heads-up, that I stopped look very seriosly at heads-up turn raises especially on the dangerous turns. In addition to this the fish was able to have two pair (in which case I had many outs), thats why I decided to just call and see the river, going to fold to his river bet.

I had two additional options:
1) RR turn: fold to cap and check river, folding to his river bet.
2) Calling to the end having about 1:4

I know it is difficult to find the correct decision when HU without opponent reads, but on Party 0.5/1 players come and quit so frequantly, that it is almost impossible to get any reads.

How do you usually consider turn raises in this situation from uknown?

jrz1972 · #2 11-23-2005, 04:41 PM

Call down. You're probably going to lose to the flush, but sometimes your opponent will be getting way out of line with something like AT.

I can understand the case for folding right here, but calling the turn and folding the river UI strikes me as being a very poor option. Reraising is also bad, since if villain is bluffing you don't want to slow him down.

HouseCalls · #3 11-23-2005, 04:50 PM

ok I guess its time for my weak tight post of the day:

I have started folding pretty often in this spot. I'm playing PS .10/.20. At least in this games players listed as rocks, fish, or calling stations seem to play very straight forward. I used to call this down most of the time and just didn't seem to find a lot of bluffs. One other problem - calling down to yet another painful draw out runs the risk of my going on mega-tilt which has a greater negative EV than not catching the 1 in 100 bluff here.
That said against an aggressive player I RR

MrWookie47 · #4 11-23-2005, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Call down. You're probably going to lose to the flush, but sometimes your opponent will be getting way out of line with something like AT.

I can understand the case for folding right here, but calling the turn and folding the river UI strikes me as being a very poor option. Reraising is also bad, since if villain is bluffing you don't want to slow him down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty small pot. Also, the turn card was an undercard. If it's an overcard to the board (not to your pair), it's usually a better call down. Folding this is good.

jrz1972 · #5 11-23-2005, 05:05 PM

Yeah actually on second thought it's kind of hard to come up with a hand that a known passive would play this way that doesn't have me beaten.

How would your play in this spot differ if villain were TAG? LAG?

#6 11-23-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah actually on second thought it's kind of hard to come up with a hand that a known passive would play this way that doesn't have me beaten.

How would your play in this spot differ if villain were TAG? LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you have a lot of outs against his two pair hands. For instance vs. T8, you've got 8 outs, and the pot is 7.5 BBs after he checkraises. Also, is it possible he could be doing this with a T and the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? You do beat that.

I tend to call these checkraises down without a strong read, but I'm not sure whether or not it's right.

jrz1972 · #7 11-23-2005, 05:15 PM

Yeah but the problem with this is that even if one of your "outs" hits, you'll often be shown a set or a flush, so you need to substantially discount your outs against two-pair.

MrWookie47 · #8 11-23-2005, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah actually on second thought it's kind of hard to come up with a hand that a known passive would play this way that doesn't have me beaten.

How would your play in this spot differ if villain were TAG? LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd want to catch some other sort of bluff, esp. a c/r bluff against any player, tag, lag, slag, flag, rag, nag, or wag, before I called this down. The pot is just really small. Throw a few more BB in and the call down looks a little more appealing, but this isn't a great board even then.

nomadtla · #9 11-23-2005, 05:33 PM

*grunch*
1) RRing turn does nothing for us - if I'm gonna pay 2 bet's to see this down I want to at least add a bit of value by hoping he continues his weak bet on the turn.
2) The question is do I want to pay 2BB to see this down. If I call the raise I'm not folding to the bet that will automatically come on the river. So while we have some outs against 2 pair I'm actually gonna say that since I'd call a river bet 100% that I'm acctually paying 2 for this 7.5 pot (8.5 after his river bet). That's only giving me 4.25:1 and I don't think after discounting my 2 pair outs (since we may be dead in the water) we're good often enough to call here.

friends · #10 11-23-2005, 05:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
That's only giving me 4.25:1 and I don't think after discounting my 2 pair outs (since we may be dead in the water) we're good often enough to call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really 4.25:1. Add here the possibibity of semi-bluff (bluff) raise.