TT vs fish

DavidC · #1 10-20-2005, 02:19 PM

Paradise 8/16, 8 or 9 handed.

I'm in MP1 with TT, This is within my first orbit at the table, but I've been watching a few hands before posting. Unfortunately, just as I was about to switch seats, some douche took the good spot. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyways, the guy in the bb bought in for half the buy and I don't really know what to think of him yet. I've watched maybe 5-10 hands, he's been in a few mroe than he should have, but I've never seen his cards...

To my direct left are two fish, very loose, very passive (open limping on the CO).

The rest of the players I'm not sure of just yet.

Anyways, two limpers to me in EP and I raise in MP1 with TT.

Fishy CC's me, next fishy folds, I think one of the blinds stays in.

Flop: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 10.5 sb in the pot, 5 players.

It's checked to me, I bet, fishy raises, it's folded to the guy to my direct right, who calls...

My plan is to call down to the river but fold on a flush card vs any action.

Turn is a Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], river is some unremarkable card, maybe an 8, but doesn't complete the flush.

I check, fishy bets, I can't remember what the other guy did, but I called.

Seem okay?

Redd · #2 10-20-2005, 02:28 PM

I'd value 3-bet the flop unless you're pretty sure this guy is passive enough not to raise a draw.

Buckmulligan · #3 10-20-2005, 02:28 PM

I think we showdown the best hand after this flop about 50% of the time. We aren't getting rid of the last fishy by 3 betting the flop, but we have the equity to bet with him around, so I'm for 3 betting the flop. I like this like quite a bit more with QQ than with TT, but even then I'm putting in a raise on the river.

aargh57 · #4 10-20-2005, 02:38 PM

How would a donk bet on the turn withought a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falling be? I don't like giving a free card and without that much info I don't know if you can rule out the possibility of him going for one (even though you do think he's a fish even fish may raise with something like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]).

But you're the one playing 8/16.

lautzutao · #5 10-20-2005, 02:44 PM

I think you have to 3-bet the flop here. He could be betting A6 or some other ridiculous 1 pair hand. And I don't think you should be folding to this player if a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] comes either. If you knew Mr Fish was savvy enough to bet a heart draw that would be even more reason to raise this flop.

AdamL · #6 10-20-2005, 03:12 PM

To those who want to 3-bet:

Generally, "fish" (as in the loose, and nicely passive kind) check through with little pairs, even if they are the top pair on the board. They play little cards for straights and flushes and things.

For a passive player to raise this flop, he has to really like his hand. Think about it. Fish play scared. They play "with a little something" and hope to see a showdown, or they "hit something big" and start firing. That's why they have such low aggression ratings.

Fish don't raise tiny little pairs in unraised pots. If they do, they're probably not LP-Ps, but LP-A's. That's a different animal and usually a more experienced player winding down, having some fun.

3-betting here is only really good if you want to fold to a cap.

ps - and a fish iso-raising a draw? Not a lp-p!

pps - on the phone with Dave, I put this guy on 52o. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

DavidC · #7 10-20-2005, 03:20 PM

Adam,

Firstly, you out-nitted me on the term fish, though this player was a fish in the loose-passive sense. I am truly humbled by your nititude. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Though I agree with your general sentiment, I'd like to point out a few things:

[ QUOTE ]
or they "hit something big" and start firing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you remember that in one of the earlier 2p2 magazines there was an article on how players made their money. Fish tend to make it when we bet their hands for them.

However, this is what I object to:

[ QUOTE ]
3-betting here is only really good if you want to fold to a cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the action and the board, we will have odds to draw to a set, and potentially that set will be good, if he caps, especially considering the guy calling behind us who may have a set himself or more likely has some type of draw.

So, if we three-bet, we must call a cap, and we can think about bailing on the turn.

To the guy that suggested calling the flop and then donking the turn, we can only do this if we plan on folding to a raise. I don't think I could do that without puking all over my keyboard, which is why I chose to call down.

DavidC · #8 10-20-2005, 03:23 PM

The neat thing about donking the turn is that in the specific instance of the LPP having JJ, we'll get a call out of him on the turn and he'll probably check through the river unimproved if we check to him.

AdamL · #9 10-20-2005, 03:23 PM

"Fish tend to make it when we bet their hands for them. "

Right, but you quoted the wrong bit of my writing when you added that.

" They play "with a little something" and hope to see a showdown " would be the correct quotation here. IOW, he has a 6, he calls down. You show TT and you win. Or, you have overcards, and he makes money. Etc.

OUT-NITTED AGAIN! Oh, SNAP! What is the world coming to?

AdamL · #10 10-20-2005, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The neat thing about donking the turn is that in the specific instance of the LPP having JJ, we'll get a call out of him on the turn and he'll probably check through the river unimproved if we check to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mebe. But for sure he'd pause for like, 10 seconds or so, before hitting "check" on the river. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] (making it all worth it)