Arrgh - I hate jacks - what's my line?

[The Student]

This is a $109 Ultimate Bet MTT. 1.5 hours into the tourney and I've been at this table the whole time. I've been pretty tight the whole tourney, and I haven't had any playable hands for a couple of orbits. The villian seems to be playing a pretty solid game and got most of his chips when others pushed TPGK into his overpairs (Q/Q once and J/J another time). What do I do with this flop OOP?

Hand #9023238-125 at Sat4pmA-008 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 15/Oct/05 17:47:17

45 is at seat 0 with 4380.
Hero is at seat 1 with 2910.
BreezyDC is at seat 2 with 5685.
Macambo is at seat 3 with 8515.
skyyvodka1 is at seat 4 with 8030.
MagicalMan is at seat 5 with 7210.
TJ C is at seat 6 with 2850.
tallnywrtr is at seat 7 with 11025.
TotallyNutz is at seat 8 with 225.
hutch1369 is at seat 9 with 7310.
The button is at seat 5.

TJ C posts the small blind of 75.
tallnywrtr posts the big blind of 150.

45: -- --
Hero: Js Jh
BreezyDC: -- --
Macambo: -- --
skyyvodka1: -- --
MagicalMan: -- --
TJ C: -- --
tallnywrtr: -- --
TotallyNutz: -- --
hutch1369: -- --

Pre-flop:

TotallyNutz folds. hutch1369 calls. 45 folds. Hero raises to 675. BreezyDC folds. Macambo calls.
skyyvodka1 folds. MagicalMan folds. TJ C folds.
tallnywrtr folds. hutch1369 folds.

Flop (board: Ad 4s Ah):

Hero???

I never feel confident playing Js OOP, so any advice is appreciated. If I bet I'm more afraid of a call then a raise, as I assume any A would call and hope I continue to bet it for him. However, if I bet and get raised, do I have to give him credit for an A? He has enough chips that he can raise me and put me to the test and it would be hard for me to call him without an A.

so what's my line?

ts-

[BPA234]

IMO, you are either way ahead or toast. So much depends on your read of the villain. Generally speaking, the odds of him holding an A are greatly reduced with two A's on board. But, what range of hands do you put him on calling your slight, over-reraise preflop? That is the question that I would want to be able to answer prior to next action. Was he often calling pre-flop raises with position? If so, than I would think you are likely way ahead and I would try and extract value from the hand. If he is a total rock, you are likely behind drawing to a two-outer.

If I am villain, and you have been TAG, I would put you on QQ-1010 maybe AK-AJs. I believe villain calls here with AK, AA, KK, QQ. He calls with a a lower PP if he saw you playing AK, AQ AJ in the same manner earlier or if he thinks you're stealing preflop with Ax. Have you been doing the above? If so, you're likely ahead. If not, you are behind.

I once read that treating JJ like 88 is a good way to guide your play. Personally, at a full table, I tend to treat JJ like AK with a mix of calls, raises and reraises. All depending on position, stacks, levels and villains involved.

[The Student]

I had put villian on a range that included PPs 7/7 - Q/Q, strong suited kings, and strong aces. I don't think he calls here with A/A and K/K - he re-raises me pre-flop. Like you said, the fact that there are two aces on the flop decrease the likelihood that he has one in his hand, and I doubt he hit a set of 4s because I don't think he'd play them behind a PFR. So right now, I'm only worried about Q/Q and a strong ace.

So, the question remains - what's my line here?

ts-

[Sam T.]

I wouldn't have raise so much pre-flop. JJ is a good hand, but if I'm going to play it OOP, I'd rather do so with a small pot. If you raise to t450, you have an easier time making a continuation bet without losing your shirt.

As for the flop...yeeks. A couple of options:

1. Check-fold. Weak, but keeps your losses to a minimum. It also might make it look like you are going for a C-R, so unless he has an Ace, there is a good chance he will check behind. Then you peel of a Jack on the turn, and double up. I don't like this line.

2. Bet t500. It's a bit small, but there are no draws, and there is no harm in looking like you want action. If he calls, you can shut it down.

3. Go for the gusto. CR all-in. No better way of finding out if he really has an ace, and if he doesn't you've got yourself a nice pot.

Well being the newbie that I am I"ll mostly just say I really hate pocket J's. They are like the homely girl you felt like you had to take to the dance; and only look real good if you've been drinking.
Chances of him having AA are slim, but Ax definetly possible. AK he'll call anything b/c he knows at worse you have AK too and will chop. AQ he probably still calls hoping to have a better kicker. Pocket K's and Q are plausible too, and have you beat leaving a long shot draw. I don't have the expert commentary most of these guys do, but I'd lean on folding, or otherwise making an decent sized bet, leaving you with a stack that's still workable if you lose (sorry I don't remember your stack atm.) Not big on the check here, but I may learn different. Interested in what the others would do though, I'd like to learn.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
TotallyNutz folds. hutch1369 calls. 45 folds . Hero raises to 675

[/ QUOTE ]

Im probobly the only one who found that funny.

I considered that for awhile too while putting in my 2 cents. It does sound good, but maybe its just me cuz I'm poor - the buy in money would sting a bit if I lost this hand. To me the range of hands that could have the J's beat at this point seems to many though to justify a push? Wrong?

[Sam T.]

I think it depends on the range you put the villain upon. If he is playing the the deep stack well, it's pretty wide: he should be calling raises in position, and then putting folks to the test on the flop. (This hand is actually a very nice example of how to use a big stack to your advantage.) I'd say a decent ace, pretty much any pocket pair, QQ-77, maybe even some good SCs like KQ. Hell, if he's tricky, he might be trying this with any two.

I'm not saying the Hero should open push. That's pretty close to suicide, since he'll only get called by hands that have him crushed, and it would scream, "I don't have an ace, or else I'd try to get more value out of this" If this gets a call from TT, great, but QQ is coming along as well.

The C-R all-in, in contrast, is a clear signal that he has an ace, and wanted to get more out of the hand. The only problem is that if the villain makes a big bet, you are on a decision because he will call your push just due to the size of the pot.

I dunno. I'm not very good at this kind of thing.

[BPA234]

OK. You put him on a wide range of hands. Due to your stack size, and the size of the pot, I believe you have to decide if you are going ahead with this hand as best hand or not.

Since you think he reraises with AA/KK and he is unlikely to have an A, I think you have to consider your hand best. If he has QQ so be it.


With best hand here, against most players, I check the flop hoping he bets. I smooth call any bet upto 1/3 the pot and then value bet the turn. This may mean pushing depending on your stack and potsize. If he pushes the flop, I call.

If he checks the flop, I 2/3 pot bet the turn.

[zambonidrivr]

how is this a bad flop for you? this is an easy cr all in

nh