Middle pair with some backdoors...

blackaces13 · #1 10-17-2005, 03:42 PM

PP .5/1

First hand at a new table...

I have: J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the BB

PREFLOP: UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, 4 folds, button calls, SB folds, I check.

FLOP: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players, 4.25 SBs)
I bet, all 3 call.

TURN: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players, 4BBs)
Checked around.

RIVER: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players, 4BBs)
I check, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, button folds, My action...

This hand is debatable on both the flop and turn, feel free to comment on that, but I'm more interested in the river. Is the river even close or is it a tough decision?

xadrez · #2 10-17-2005, 03:48 PM

Bet the turn.

If the table was not overly passive what do people think of a flop check-raise? Is that too LAG?

shadow29 · #3 10-17-2005, 03:59 PM

Raise!

bozlax · #4 10-17-2005, 04:04 PM

Don't stop betting until somebody plays back at you. The way you played it, I want to raise the river, but getting 3-bet would suck in a relatively small pot, so I probably go for the UTG overcall.

Aaron W. · #5 10-17-2005, 04:06 PM

If you bet the flop, you've got to bet the turn. Playing this way does very little good for you.

I would call. Hopefully UTG will be stupid and overcall with a pair of 7s.

blackaces13 · #6 10-17-2005, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the value in that. I got called in 3 places with middle pair and didn't pick up any extra outs on the turn.

blackaces13 · #7 10-17-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the flop, you've got to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely. When I bet the flop I was neither expecting nor hoping that everyone would call. Also, I didn't pick up a flush/straight draw to go with my middle pair on the turn so I don't see the value in betting middle pair/no draw into 3 rainbow flop callers.

I'd much rather bet the flop and re-evaluate the turn than just follow it up with a turn bet 100% of the time.

lautzutao · #8 10-17-2005, 04:19 PM

when you checked the turn, were you essentially giving up on the hand?

I would have bet the turn...if I got raised here I'd think about folding. And if you're worried about a Queen just release the hand. Calling this river now with an overcall possibly coming(or even possibly a donkey check/raise, who knows...) doesn't make me feel very good about my middle pair.

bozlax · #9 10-17-2005, 04:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When I bet the flop I was neither expecting nor hoping that everyone would call.

[/ QUOTE ]

But nobody raised you on the flop, so your middle pair is likely to be good. Now you bet the turn for protection, because anybody on a straight draw, UI overcards, etc., has just seen their equity go through the floor. J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], for instance, had good reason to call the flop; it has no reason to call the turn.

The way you played it, of course one of the last guys in line is going to bet the river, and now you're stuck not knowing what to do.

blackaces13 · #10 10-17-2005, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't stop betting until somebody plays back at you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're the 3rd person to suggest some variation of that theme to me. But I don't like to play by platitudes. I find hard and fast rules like "bet until they play back" aren't optimal and are less conducive towards learning.

If I had a strong hand like TPTK then clearly that's the line, but all I have here is middle pair and I was called by 3 players on a rainbow flop, I don't think I am ahead enough to bet for value. I bet the flop hoping to get people to fold and had 2 backdoor draws to fall back on if too many people called or I got raised.

The way things worked out I thought it would be better to check and see what happened behind me.