Q5s BB 4 handed

[oreogod]

No strong reads. Sometimes I check raise this flop.

5/10 4 handed.

Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG opens, 2 folds, I call in BB.

FLOP 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I lead, UTG raises....

My flop and turn action?

[Catt]

Call. Ck-turn (might bet a Q). Play it straightforwardly.

[Catt]

By the way, I think this is an unfriendly board for a flop donk bet with your hand. The guy is almost certainly going to call or raise, and he'll virutally never fold. And I don't think you buy any real FE for the turn if you were planning to donk the turn again.

[Transference]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I think this is an unfriendly board for a flop donk bet with your hand. The guy is almost certainly going to call or raise, and he'll virutally never fold. And I don't think you buy any real FE for the turn if you were planning to donk the turn again.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thinking as well, i think a flop c/r dramatically improves our hand by increasing turn FE. The raise behind our flop donk really doesnt tell us much and can put us in an awkard position on the turn. In its favor I think the donk improves our implied odds but HU on this board at most it earns us a BB and is unlikely to be a good exchange for FE.

[B Dids]

I call and c/r when I hit.

I don't hate your flop line.

the key part of this play is "hitting".

[TStoneMBD]

i think its pretty silly to donkbet this flop if your line is to checkcall turn check river. youre basically rewarding him for raising your donkbet with ace/king/better queen high. if youre going to donkbet i think its manditory you 3bet or bet/checkraise the turn. i think the 3bet is a better line because i dont think most players are astute enough to laydown ace high to a turn donk and if hes aggressive enough to bluff raise a flop donk, hes probably aggressive enough to do it to a turn donk.

my standard line for this flop is to checkraise, but bet/3bet is also good. bet/call...check is the worst i think.

[Roy6]

I'd check-raise a blank turn if he's reasonable. Am I a LAG?

[oreogod]

I didnt post this hand for me. It was for a friend of mine.

I usually check raise this (meant to say Most Times I cr this flop)...but went with a bet/3bet line here. Just wanted to hear what lines ppl would take.

I think a CR flop is best but I also need/want to mix it up sometimes, whether its bet/3bet and the occasionally call flop, c/r turn (if hes the type that continues with continuations bets).....I was going to type my analysis but remembered Jason pohl outlined my thinking in an old article a while back. I read when I was busting my ass learning short, I reccomend ppl learning short to take a look at all his stuff --- availible HERE)

From his FLOP Play Part II article describing a situation close to my own (but villian in the hand he talked about has UI AK).

[ QUOTE ]

The situation above is practically a coin flip (49.4% vs 50.6%). Therefore, the number of bets on the flop is effectively irrelevant. The only pertinent question is how the big blind's actions on the flop affect the turn and river play. Simply put, if a check-raise on the flop is more likely to cause the button to lay down its hand on the turn, then the big blind should unquestionably check-raise the flop and bet again on the turn.

If an Ace or King does fall on the turn, then the button might raise and cost the big blind an extra big bet. Figuring in the odds of sucking out on the river (Queen or Seven), the true price would be .818 big bets. Meanwhile, when the button fails to improve on the turn (on the 39 cards that are not an Ace or King), the big blind may well win the whole pot. Based on earlier assumptions, that pot would include 5.25 big bets.

It is important to realize that the big blind's flop play does not make a difference if an Ace or King falls on the turn. Either way (check-raising or betting out), the big blind will have control of the hand. The big blind will lose the same amount if an Ace or King hits or if the button refuses to lay down against two blanks. Again, the key is the likelihood the button will drop its hand when a blank hits. **Note: The big blind is a significant underdog on the turn if a blank hits, so the big blind wants the button to lay down the AKo.** If the chance of a fold is increased even 1% by a check-raise, then a check-raise should be employed.

But what if the button raises the flop with overcards and takes control of the hand? It should be obvious that allowing the button to take a free card or bet the turn to check the river would be very bad for our hero, the big blind. In both cases, the button has increased its chances of improving and/or seeing a showdown. At showdown, the button wins EVERY single time the big blind does not improve (and some times when both hands make a pair). Therefore, if a check-raise on the flop is more likely to take control of the hand, it is again a superior play since it vastly increases the odds the big blind will win the money already in the pot. This "control" factor strongly supports the case to check-raise with drawing hands.

I cannot emphasize enough that the only time the check-raise is disadvantageous is when the button holds a legitimate, strong hand. Even then, the check-raise only costs a fraction of a small bet. Meanwhile, the check-raise increases the likelihood of winning pots without making a hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

[TStoneMBD]

id also like to add to my original post that a flop bet/call makes sense of course if villain will fold overs to the flop bet but will only raise legitimate hands that hes taking to showdown no matter what line you take. however, knowing that requires a specific and fairly impressive read. i just feel like i need to include these disclosures lately because if i dont speak the obvious people assume i dont know it.

btw, that last line has nothing to do with you oreo. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
i think its pretty silly to donkbet this flop if your line is to checkcall turn check river. youre basically rewarding him for raising your donkbet with ace/king/better queen high. if youre going to donkbet i think its manditory you 3bet or bet/checkraise the turn. i think the 3bet is a better line because i dont think most players are astute enough to laydown ace high to a turn donk and if hes aggressive enough to bluff raise a flop donk, hes probably aggressive enough to do it to a turn donk.

my standard line for this flop is to checkraise, but bet/3bet is also good. bet/call...check is the worst i think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think bet-3-betting is not very good in this hand without a read. Against an unknown, I think it pretty unlikely you fold him before the river comes, especially if he is capable of raising the flop donk with overs. It's an UTG raise and a flop raise, and most of the guys in that game are not going to fold the turn UI in position after they're 3-bet on the flop. I'd much rather C/R here, or even ck-call and donk the turn in some cases. I like bet-cl and c/r turn, too, but these lines get iffy against a total unknown. In sum, I really don't like to flop donk here, and I don't much care for any of our options after we're raised on the flop (which was not entirely a surprise in any event).

The one thing going for the flop donk & ck turn is that a lot of guys will raise the flop with overs and check behind on the turn taking "their" free card -- sometimes a flop donk will buy a river for 1 BB when it might otherwise cost 1.5 BBs if we check-call (and the guy is not capable of folding before the river -- a reasonable assumption for most unkwnowns here, I think). I'm also assuming that an unknown's UTG raising standards are overwehlmingly skewed towards made hands (PP) and high cards that beat our Q-high no kicker -- meaning that we need to hit something or fold him to win the hand of course.