KK - Basic question when A flops

mojobluesman · #1 10-10-2005, 12:41 PM

I realise this is a basic question, but I'm still not sure I grasp it or played this right.

When the A flops and my opponent bets, I really only have 2 options fold or raise. Folding isn't too bad, but it does seem kind of weak. Raising saves me 1 small bet because I get to check behind on the river.

Is my thinking correct and did I play this correctly?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 5 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

adsman · #2 10-10-2005, 12:52 PM

If you're behind you've saved half a BB but if you're ahead you've missed out on that half bet. I would think of this as a WA/WB situation. It's HU for a start. If he's got the Ace then you're way behind, (though you do have a backdoor flush draw to the nuts that will sometimes bail you out). If he hasn't got the Ace then you want him to stay in there. Call down the whole way for me and bet if he checks the river.

aargh57 · #3 10-10-2005, 12:52 PM

I'm thinking that this probably depends on how aggressive the villain is and the question in general depends on other factors too. However, in this situation I think I would've played it the same. On the flop you also have a bd flush draw to go with your pair giving you a little more value. I think this is a borderline hand and if the BB is tight it is probably a fold.

crownjules · #4 10-10-2005, 12:53 PM

Yeah, this is pretty much the way to play against the "standard" opponent, hoping that you'll get him to fold a weak ace. Villain also could be betting on a flush draw.

Against a rock or just generally passive player, however, I'd probably fold since there's almost zero chance they're betting with something other than an Ace. You should also consider how often a player will go to showdown if you think he has the ace and you try to raise/bet him off it.

gharp · #5 10-10-2005, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When the A flops and my opponent bets, I really only have 2 options fold or raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree -- calling is definitely an option here. This is a Way-Ahead/Way-Behind situation, but I think it's a little different in this case because of that pesky A that so many players play.

So this situation is very opponent-dependent. If he's super-straightforward and would only lead out with top pair or better, then go ahead and fold.

If he's tricky but loose and would lead out with a 9/5/flush draw/pocket pair/nothing-at-all, but then still call down anyway, playing it like you did is probably OK. (Raising the turn might be better.)

But if he's tricky and smart enough to lead out with that 9/5/flush draw/PP/nothing but then fold if he thinks you have the A, then your line lets him get away from his hand cheaply. You might as well just call all the way and let him keep betting the second best hand.

So, bottom line, reads help. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

EDIT: Man, I post too slow...

#6 10-10-2005, 01:41 PM

I like raising the flop here. If you are ahead it's for value. If he semi-bluffed a flush draw you make him pay. If he has A with a good kicker he might reraise and you will know that you are probably beaten. Even if he doesn't reraise but then bets the turn, you can expect him to have an A most of the time.
Additionally you might force him to fold a pair of aces if his kicker is weak.
I like your bet on the turn. He checked and thus showed weakness. When he checks the river his most probable holdings are a weak ace or a missed flush draw. So you can consider betting, but i think it depends on your opponent.

Aaron W. · #7 10-10-2005, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like raising the flop here. If you are ahead it's for value. If he semi-bluffed a flush draw you make him pay. If he has A with a good kicker he might reraise and you will know that you are probably beaten. Even if he doesn't reraise but then bets the turn, you can expect him to have an A most of the time.
Additionally you might force him to fold a pair of aces if his kicker is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming that a player on whom there is no read will play in a straightforward, predicatable manner. That's a very large assumption.

And you will NEVER make an ace fold unless villain is super-weak.

#8 10-10-2005, 07:48 PM

I really don't think too many of the normally passive players at the micro-limits will reraise into a flop-raising preflop raiser without at least the A here. This will more often be the case at higher stakes.
Also not too many players will slowplay with really strong hands if you raise them. Why should they as long as you pay off their bets? Therefore if he reraises or calls the flop and leads out on the turn i expect him to have a strong hand more often than not and i expect him to have a weaker hand if he only calls the flop and checks the turn (unless he check-raises).

[ QUOTE ]
And you will NEVER make an ace fold unless villain is super-weak.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's why i wrote you might force him to fold. But i agree this will only very rarely be the case.

JackThree · #9 10-10-2005, 11:55 PM

just call down

when you raise he'll fold if you have him beat making you no money.
or he'll call if he beats you losing you more

the raise does sometimes save you a little cash, but when he doesn't have the ace and keeps betting into you is worth more than saving the small bet some of the time

bjarne · #10 10-11-2005, 04:27 AM

Grunching.

First of all IMO, playing KK to the river when an A flops in HU situations does not constitute a big leak, even if its possibly -EV against some players. So I don't worry too much about it. My KK are my top winning hand second only to AA.

Now to your hand.

Without reads its tricky. First of all, villains flop bet means nothing HU. It could mean to scare you to fold your KQ or your PP and it could be betting out a flush draw. So the flop raise is perfectly fine. In fact agains weak tight opponents I often bet any Axx Kxx, Qxx flop in this situation because of the fold equity.

Come the turn. Now we have to start worrying about the A.
If villains has A he will see you to the river. Ax will almost never fold here. However, if you don't have a read, you really don't want to give a free card to the flush or some small two-pair, or trips. So I'll usually bet.

Villain calling the turn again is the part I really hate. Without a read we have no clue where we stand. Some people call raises in the BB with almost any crap. So I'd check behind as well. Villain is unlikely to call more than 50% here without the A or better so I think a river bet would be -EV.

So to conclude, I would have played it exactly the same.

Anyway, I woldn't lose any sleep over it.