Reversing a 7CSFAP Advanced Play

blumpkin22 · #1 10-12-2005, 09:04 PM

Say it is folded to you last to act before the bring-in with (Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], you complete as you would with almost anything, and the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] calls. You both catch blanks on 4th; you bet and he calls. You both catch blanks on fifth and you check...

BeerMoney · #2 10-12-2005, 09:07 PM

I check raise here a lot.

Andy B · #3 10-12-2005, 09:12 PM

With the intention of raising, I presume. The other guy will presumably bet, having read in 7CS4AP that he can expect to pick up the pot.

Fifth street is the first real opportunity to give you opponent a chance to fold. He can't fold if you don't bet. I don't really look for reasons to get fancy with one pair.

Michael Emery · #4 10-12-2005, 09:13 PM

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I check raise here a lot.

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So do I. The diffrence is I usually have a hand when I checkraise here and you usually dont, fish. I'm a little confused by the title of the post. This situation is of course a lot diffrent when your in a steal position. I dont think Sklansky, Mason or Zee would be opposed to this play.

Mike Emery

CarlosChadha · #5 10-13-2005, 02:13 AM

The fewer people playing, the higher the ante, the more agressive your opponent is, the less coordinated both your and your opponents boards are, the less you have check raised recently, and the more observant he is (or the longer you have played with him) the more likely you should be to CR here. In the extreme example (heads up 30/60, raggy board, vs. vA opponent who I have played several 100 hands with) I will check raise 60% of the time. Against a calling station I bet out 90%-100% of the time depending on the other factors. Against the average unknown player in a pokerstars 30/60 8 handed game, I'd bet out about 75% of the time. A key concept with 5th street, like the turn in HE, is that you should give up most of your steals when the betting doubles, so when HEADS UP, you should often be check raising with your good hands.

If your check raise fails, you can often induce them to bluff 6th if they fall high, or you can check raise them on 6th if they are agressive and your board is weak.

Regards,
Carlos

blumpkin22 · #6 10-13-2005, 02:58 AM

Nice post, Carlos. Good food for thought.

SNOWBALL138 · #7 10-13-2005, 05:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A key concept with 5th street, like the turn in HE, is that you should give up most of your steals when the betting doubles, so when HEADS UP, you should often be check raising with your good hands.

If your check raise fails, you can often induce them to bluff 6th if they fall high, or you can check raise them on 6th if they are agressive and your board is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post.

I'd like to talk about the double check here though.

if they called you on fourth, they have a pair or a draw typically. In that case, failing to checkraise successfully on fifth becomes dangerous for 2 reasons. The first is that the free card becomes dangerous. The second is that a value bet seems like it will be successful very often after a check on fifth.

"But, what if the player is aggressive"? someone might ask

If they are so aggressive, why didn't they bet fifth? Also, if they haven't seen you do a lot of checkraising, then your sixth street bet will seem suspicious to them (it won't just look like u whiffed on your C/R on 5th), and you might get raised by one pair or an 8 or 9 out draw as a semi-bluff or a free showdown semibluff.

In short, you get in one bet a lot of the time, and two bets some of the time by betting.

If you check-raise you get in one bet some of the time, and two bets less often still, because sometimes they fold sixth.

I'm assuming of course, that getting more money in the pot is your goal. The pot isn't big here, so you are probably profitting from each additional bet that goes in more than you would if they would fold (depending on the boards, live cards, etc.)

I hope I wasn't too general. Its easier to talk about stuff like this in LHE IMO because its a simpler game with less variables.

Cheers,
Snowball

Bartholow · #8 10-13-2005, 10:14 AM

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The pot isn't big here, so you are probably profitting from each additional bet that goes in more than you would if they would fold (depending on the boards, live cards, etc.)

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This is almost never true when you have just one pair. Assuming you are in fact ahead, you would still generally prefer they fold. Failing that, you want as many bets to go in as possible.

CarlosChadha · #9 10-13-2005, 12:18 PM

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if they called you on fourth, they have a pair or a draw typically.

[/ QUOTE ]

Emperically, I have found that this is not really true, if by "draw" you mean a 4 card draw to a flush or a str8 (most good players with raise with these "draws" on 4th because they are often times in the lead vs just 1 pair). Often time in a heads up situation, people will call on 4th with as little as a busted 3 flush, 1 overcard, or a bad gutshot str8 (ie. 4578 is bad, 4568 is better, and 4567 is best). they do this either because they think you are on a total steal, or simply because they are not thinking about pot odds.

I would rarely attempt a CR on 6th after a 5th st. CR fails, most of the conditions I outlined for the 5th st. CR have to again be met. It is really important that your opponent is willing to bluff with no hand, or semi bluff with as little as 1 or 2 overcards after you have shown a lot of weakness by being checked to twice. If your check raise gets them to fold 6th with one pair (this will rarely happen, they will be too suspicious/confused and probably call you down), that is a great result for you because now the pot is big enough that they should have called.

You are right that you might get more money in by betting, inducing them to semi bluff with a raise, but I claim that an opponent has to be MUCH more aggressive to semi bluff raise, than to just simply semi bluff bet if checked to twice. The reason is that if they thought you had no hand, they would have just bet 5th, instead of semi bluff raising 6th. What is more likely, IMO, is that just call on 6th after you bet, and congradualate themselves for saving 2 bets by not getting CR on 5th.

-Carlos

patrick dicaprio · #10 10-13-2005, 06:49 PM

what are you hoping to do here with a check?? that is the question i will assume you mean raising. personally i think this is a bad play against most opponents. if he checks behind this is a disaster and lets face it it is not like a pair of jacks is that great. i would bet here almost every time and against most opponents.

Pat