PLO8 $200 hand

[Wintermute]

Played this hand against a poster here (we both know who each other's screenames, FWIW). He's a 25/7, I'm a 35/12. I believe he misplayed the hand, but I'm not at all sure of that... want to see what others think.

$200 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: marley25 ( $530.49 )
Seat 6: Banbury_Boy ( $255.50 )
Seat 7: Hero ( $614.26 )
Seat 9: Bunny_HopHop ( $158 )
Seat 10: bongo6832 ( $419.89 )
Seat 8: Poster ( $200 )
Seat 4: lavaman11 ( $45.70 )
Seat 2: CLOWNG0D ( $227.30 )
Seat 3: wazwaz ( $123.75 )
Seat 5: tricky1010 ( $200 )
CLOWNG0D posts small blind [$1].
wazwaz posts big blind [$2].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ah 6c Jh Ac ]
(Dealt to Poster [ 2s, Ad, 9s, 5s ])

lavaman11 folds.
tricky1010 folds.
Banbury_Boy folds.
Hero calls [$2].
Poster raises [$9].
bongo6832 calls [$9].
marley25 calls [$9].
CLOWNG0D folds.
wazwaz folds.
Hero raises [$46].
Poster calls [$39].
bongo6832 calls [$39].
marley25 folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ As, 9c, Js ]

Hero bets [$153].
Poster is all-In [$152]
bongo6832 folds.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I'm limping preflop if I'm Poster. And I'm folding the flop.

[Wintermute]

I should've mentioned that one pertinent fact is that the 2dimes analysis for this call is:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing As Js 9c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 6c Ah Jh 504 574 246 0 0 0 0 0.657
9s 5s 2s Ad 246 246 574 0 144 0 0 0.343

So, his call was mathematically correct given these hands. It's still a bad play IMO.

[Cooker]

As a general rule, I don't want to raise this hand preflop as the poster did. He has only a dry A2 with a crummy flush draw although some counterfit protection. I bet this hand doesn't do all that great against a random hand, although he could be trying some kind of isolation raise against a player he knows is often very aggressive and a little loose. Also, at 35/12 a limp from EP should probably set off warning bells about a big hand and not be read as weakness. I would like to hit a very favorable flop before I put in much money with A259.

I could even fold to the reraise preflop. You know hero is going to move you in on almost any flop and you are mostly hoping to hit a low draw and pray you don't get quartered. You also know hero probably has AA and probably even has a low card as well. This puts you in potentially the worst situation possible preflop.

Even on the flop you only have a backdoor low draw with a possible flush draw (you should know your 2 pair is no good since no one reraises without AA). Your flush draw could easily be no good as well.

This might be results oriented since I know the hands, but those are my thoughts. However, if poster limps preflop and no one raises then things might go very badly as well when he flops 2 pair, but he might be able to fold a big field realizing that sets, nice flush draws, and straight draws have him in terrible shape.

In general, a dry A2 is much better in limit where big bets rarely force out people with trashy low and low draws. Even when quartered you can frequently still be profitting. At PLO8 I think it is more important to have a little something both ways than a really nice one way hand.

Given that you posted the hand, I am sure the poster rivered a flush and scooped.

[Mendacious]

what are the second numbers of the 25/7 and 35/12?

You are a little further ahead heads-up on the flop than I thought at 65/35. He had pot odds to call your flop bet though, even if he read you on aces--- and correctly read that the other player would fold.

I don't like his call of your pre-flop raise though. He also may have discounted the possibility that you had AA because of the third player and the Ace on the board. Personally, I seldom play a big pre-flop raises without an Ace, so he might have reasonably thought he had the best hand, and a club redraw, and the possibility of a low as well. I can't technically fault the post-flop play, even if I don't generally like calling off my stack as a fairly big underdog.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
what are the second numbers of the 25/7 and 35/12?

[/ QUOTE ]
VPIP/PFR.

[ QUOTE ]

You are a little further ahead heads-up on the flop than I thought at 65/35. He had pot odds to call your flop bet though, even if he read you on aces--- and correctly read that the other player would fold.

I don't like his call of your pre-flop raise though. He also may have discounted the possibility that you had AA because of the third player and the Ace on the board. Personally, I seldom play a big pre-flop raises without an Ace, so he might have reasonably thought he had the best hand, and a club redraw, and the possibility of a low as well. I can't technically fault the post-flop play, even if I don't generally like putting in my stack as a fairly big underdog.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think his PF action is fine. I'd raise where he raised, and I'd call where he called. A25 is a strong hand (what did you mean "w/out an ace"?), and calling a reraise with it when you're in position seems +EV in the long run. Suppose I miss the A on the flop and it brings two to a low or gives him nut low? It's a great hand to call this reraise w/ IMO.

It's the postflop call that I find horrible. Do you see that 65/35 is about the best he can hope for? Do some range of hands analysis and try to convince me that this call is +EV. BTW, I also think he wouldn't have minded being called from behind, and he certainly had no reason to "expect" that player to fold.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
As a general rule, I don't want to raise this hand preflop as the poster did. He has only a dry A2 with a crummy flush draw although some counterfit protection.

[/ QUOTE ]
A25 is a monster. His PFR is fine.

[ QUOTE ]
I bet this hand doesn't do all that great against a random hand, although he could be trying some kind of isolation raise against a player he knows is often very aggressive and a little loose.


[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter how it stacks up against a random hand, unless we're getting all-in preflop. A25 is going to be generally very bettable postflop. Many hands that are a favorite to A259 preflop will have to fold to betting pressure from it postflop.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, at 35/12 a limp from EP should probably set off warning bells about a big hand and not be read as weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? An EP limp suggests some strength, but you don't get to VPIP 35 by only playing monsters from UTG.

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to hit a very favorable flop before I put in much money with A259.

I could even fold to the reraise preflop. You know hero is going to move you in on almost any flop and you are mostly hoping to hit a low draw and pray you don't get quartered. You also know hero probably has AA and probably even has a low card as well. This puts you in potentially the worst situation possible preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Some parts I agree, some I don't. I think the preflop call of the reraise is correct. A25 is very bettable postflop, as I mentioned before. He's in position on me as well. I'm sure he doesn't like his situation, but I think he has to call the raise PF.

[ QUOTE ]

Even on the flop you only have a backdoor low draw with a possible flush draw (you should know your 2 pair is no good since no one reraises without AA).

[/ QUOTE ]
He probably knows that his two pair leads some very small fraction of the time (I might also repot preflop w/ A23 and perhaps lead at this flop, for example). And I do reraise w/ hands other than AA, but very rarely. Still, I agree that he probably did not have much faith in his two pair.

[ QUOTE ]

Your flush draw could easily be no good as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo. Virtually all his equity depends on his 9-high flush being good if it hits. He probably assumes I have AA, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility that I also have higher spades (although it's slim since both x's of AAxx would have to be spades). Perhaps he thinks that I would play the hand more slowly if I had top set + flush draw, and so believes his flush draw is good. Still, the possibility that I (or the OTHER player, more importantly) have the flush draw as well is enough to knock his EV in a weighted-hands sense of the concept to well below 2:1, which is what he needs to call.

Some might say the backdoor low is a significant chunk of equity--it indeed is, but he can't count on that being the best backdoor low draw as well; as such, using the same line of reasoning, it's a must-fold.

[DyessMan89]

Alright heres my take on how each player played ...

Hero-

Im not the biggest fan of the reraise. Double suited aces when they hit will generally be to the nuts, which is just as effective against 10 opponents as it is 1. Then again, I play most limit, so my opinion might be a bit skewed. On the flop, you made a standard play ... and given your image, youll probobly get a loose call from the Poster who suspects you were making a move.

Poster- Dont like the preflop raise. You have virtually a one-way hand, and a vunerable one at that. Your A2 combo is nice, but you have asbolutley nothing besides it. Limp. On the flop, you have a very tough decision. The limp re-raise smells of that of a big pair. I think even if he has a set, you have a spade (albeit low) draw, a backdoor low draw (albeit crappy) and nice pot odds. Not to mention its Wintermute.

[Wintermute]

Maybe implied bragging rights makes this call good in the long run.

That is a pretty substantial factor for the two of us.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
I should've mentioned that one pertinent fact is that the 2dimes analysis for this call is:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing As Js 9c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 6c Ah Jh 504 574 246 0 0 0 0 0.657
9s 5s 2s Ad 246 246 574 0 144 0 0 0.343

So, his call was mathematically correct given these hands. It's still a bad play IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, it's a terrible play. Because at best he has 35%, if you had a better low draw or a higher flush draw he was screwed. But he KNEW you had AA 100%. Considering the range of hands you could have (all of which have AA in), being at best 35% is -EV