Why I didn't win the Party 40k

AceofSpades · #1 10-07-2005, 12:58 AM

Bad plays = Chip Spewing = Having to make all ins even with the best of it = busted

I found a major leak in my game.

I think I'm going to start folding slight overpairs to the board when I limped pockets for set value. Anytime there is multiway action however slight. You're either ahead but must raise big to get out overcards/straight draws, or way behind to a set or two pair. And you don't really know if your opponent is a donk betting crap or has you beat.

A recent hand I had:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB (t2065)
BB (t1230)
UTG (t845)
UTG+1 (t3976)
MP1 (t2185)
MP2 (t785)
CO (t899)
Hero (t1870)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
BB calls t30, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, 1 fold, CO calls t30, Hero calls t30, SB checks.

Flop: (t210) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)

Villain bets t50
2 calls
I raise to 350
Villain reraises, and I push

Turn: (t210) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)

River: (t210) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)

Results in white below: 
SB doesn't show.
BB has 8d 8c (three of a kind, eights).
UTG+1 doesn't show.
MP1 doesn't show.
CO doesn't show.
Hero has 9c 9s (one pair, nines).
Outcome: BB wins t210. 

Same tournament previous hand why I didn't fold to the raise:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG+1 (t900)
MP1 (t925)
MP2 (t1230)
MP3 (t388)
CO (t2568)
Button (t2185)
SB (t800)
BB (t1004)
Hero (t945)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t85, 1 fold, MP1 calls t85, 6 folds.

Flop: (t215) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

I bet 175, opponent raises to 600, and I push.

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jh Jd (one pair, jacks).
MP1 has Ah 3h (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins .

#2 10-07-2005, 01:14 AM

The worse situation is when you have something like pocket sixes and hit a 4 4 2 flop. It usually is checked to you and you bet a good amount, next thing you know you have a raise and a call in front of you. (Someone with the 4 and someone in the big blind with A3 or 35.) I lose so many chips in that situation.

runout_mick · #3 10-07-2005, 01:21 AM

You're on the button with 3 limpers before you, why limp with 99? I almost always raise this to 180ish, barring reads on the utg+1 limper.

Am I wrong here? If so, please explain.

Thanks

adanthar · #4 10-07-2005, 01:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I found a major leak in my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay...

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm going to start folding slight overpairs to the board when I limped pockets for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]
Anytime there is multiway action however slight. You're either ahead but must raise big to get out overcards/straight draws, or way behind to a set or two pair. And you don't really know if your opponent is a donk betting crap or has you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you do:

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t210) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)

Villain bets t50
2 calls

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you put all 3 of them on hands you beat on an 853r board?

[ QUOTE ]
I raise to 350
Villain reraises

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think 99 is good enough here to push?

[ QUOTE ]
Same tournament previous hand why I didn't fold to the raise:

[/ QUOTE ]

How is that hand in any way related to this hand? *There's* your leak.

Blindcurve · #5 10-07-2005, 01:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm going to start folding slight overpairs to the board when I limped pockets for set value. Anytime there is multiway action however slight. You're either ahead but must raise big to get out overcards/straight draws, or way behind to a set or two pair. And you don't really know if your opponent is a donk betting crap or has you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you're being facetious.

Why would you fold the flop in hand 1 before you're reraised? You might have made a smaller raise to see where you were but folding would have been terrible. You raised, got reraised and guessed wrong. It happens. It seems a far better plan might be to remember this and exercise some caution in this situation. As for your overpair being "slight", you'd have been just as dead with KK...

As far as situation 2 justifying situation 1, they're really very different (Single vs. multiple opponents, pre-flop action, the difference in strength betw. JJ and 99.) I'm not sure you could reasonably use sit. 2 to justify your play in sit. 1.

-D.

ZeroPointMachine · #6 10-07-2005, 01:50 AM

In hand #1 your raise is like a giant NEON sign saying weak overpair. What other hand ever makes this over bet? I'm not saying that the bet is wrong, but when you get re-raised you have to know that he knows exactly where you are and is not afraid.

Blindcurve · #7 10-07-2005, 02:06 AM

In hand 1, the OP makes a raise to about the size of the pot. Absent telepathy, I don't see why OP can't have A8, 67s, 46s, 55, 33, AA, KK, QQ... All of these hands might reasonably make a pot sized raise here.

It is arguable that OP should have known he was up against better than top pair, I think. And that the reraiser was probably willing to go to the mat.

-D.

ansky451 · #8 10-07-2005, 02:37 AM

Your 'leak' is trying to make a big generalization about situations which are very... situational. You can't just say you will start folding them, you should play hands when they come up, not try to have a general way of playing every single hand.

AceofSpades · #9 10-07-2005, 02:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm going to start folding slight overpairs to the board when I limped pockets for set value. Anytime there is multiway action however slight. You're either ahead but must raise big to get out overcards/straight draws, or way behind to a set or two pair. And you don't really know if your opponent is a donk betting crap or has you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you're being facetious.

Why would you fold the flop in hand 1 before you're reraised? You might have made a smaller raise to see where you were but folding would have been terrible. You raised, got reraised and guessed wrong. It happens. It seems a far better plan might be to remember this and exercise some caution in this situation. As for your overpair being "slight", you'd have been just as dead with KK...

As far as situation 2 justifying situation 1, they're really very different (Single vs. multiple opponents, pre-flop action, the difference in strength betw. JJ and 99.) I'm not sure you could reasonably use sit. 2 to justify your play in sit. 1.

-D.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding the flop is weak tight I know that. But on the other hand if I get action it's either someone overplaying their top pair, middle pair hands [thinking I'm stealing, bluffing, semibluffing with straight draw] (like in hand two which I don't consider a slight overpair to the board btw) or I'm way behind a set, overpair, it doesn't seem like there is a cheap way to get information, about this hand.

I guess what I did was think that the donk move a different opponent made earlierwas happening now.

The trouble is with these type of highly marginal situations is that they are very player dependent, and online you really can't tell who is the superdonk w/ middle pair/draw or check raising A8 etc, and who has the set. Also with two cold callers maybe I should have just said (like another poster suggested), "how many hands call here that I beat" and then figure I'm probably beat.

So do you suggest a better line? I know one poster said raise preflop, 99 is usually the line where I limp and TT I'd raise but maybe I should change that. Also I limped because I had 61xBB and was still early. So I figured a raise would just build a big pot with overcards to my pair.

AceofSpades · #10 10-07-2005, 02:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your 'leak' is trying to make a big generalization about situations which are very... situational. You can't just say you will start folding them, you should play hands when they come up, not try to have a general way of playing every single hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, so the end result is I play a large pot when I don't know if I'm ahead or behind. Usually I err on the side of calling, and usually I'm wrong in multiway pots.