Bad bluff?

r3vbr · #1 09-21-2005, 12:11 AM

I was one of the top 30 chipleaders on a big tourney (10+R buyin 1500 entrants, 50k prizepool) and this hand came up, and I lost practicly all my chips to another chipleader.

I tried a big bluff, representing a set or straight. I really wanted to take this pot.
I had no read on him whatsoever (was multitabling at the time).
I guess I overdid it huh :/ I suck at MTTs btw.
I thought that these guys got conservative when then got a big stack but i was wrong

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter

MP1 (t9065)
MP2 (t16745)
MPC (t27705)
CO (t7250)
Button (t24500)
SB (t4450)
BB (t51845)
UTG (t4800)
UTG+1 (t21985)

Preflop:
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t200, 1 fold, MP2 calls t200, MPC raises to t1000, 1 fold, Button raises to t2000, 2 folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MPC calls t1000.

Flop: (t4700) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MPC checks, Button bets t6400, MPC calls t6400.

Turn: (t17500) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MPC bets t19305 (All-In), Button calls t16100 (All-In).

River: (t52905) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t52905

r3vbr · #2 09-21-2005, 12:12 AM

I am MPC, I had TJo and button had AA

qbler · #3 09-21-2005, 12:49 AM

Don't like it. What hand are you representing that raises 5xBB preflop and calls a reraise, then calls an overbet on that flop and pushes that turn? If you were the button and someone took this line against you would you peg them for a set or straight? I would make life simpler by tossing this preflop, you can definitely find a better spot if you're patient.

illini43 · #4 09-21-2005, 01:02 AM

Fold preflop.

nath · #5 09-21-2005, 04:09 AM

This entire hand is a mess.

Preflop: No reason to raise this. You can limp behind, although if you want to put pressure on the limpers, this isn't a bad move. Not really necessary before antes, if you ask me, but I don't necessarily fault it. But...

...The small reraise by another big stack should set off alarms in your head. He's not trying to push you out-- he's trying to get more chips out of you. And you already put in a 5xBB raise after two limpers, but he's STILL not worried about the strength of your hand. AA much? Maybe KK, but I think when the hand gets as low as even QQ or AK he bets much more preflop, if he reraises at all.

Flop: He overbets the pot! He knows there's a draw out, and should you chance to stick around with a piece of it, he wants you gone-- or if you came along with a QQ, TT, he wants you to pay to find out if your hand is good. I mean, at this point it's either AA or KK. I mean, did you possibly think your hand was good, or were you calling with the intent of taking away the pot on a move on the turn? If it's the latter, you should save that for when your opponent shows weakness, not strength. If it's the former, um... what can I say other than "Top pair isn't always good"?

Turn: This looks like a semibluff pair/straight draw more than anything else. I would call with AA too.

The problem with trying to represent a set or straight is that neither one would play this way, and your raise and call of his preflop raise limits your holdings.
IMO, any flopped set, after his overbet, is either pushing the flop, or letting him hang himself on the turn with another overbet. JJ and 99 are not unreasonable holdings here, but neither one overpushes the turn.

No sane straight draw calls an overbet on the flop from the other big stack-- and he sure as hell doesn't overbet push after he MAKES the nut hand. (Not to mention, given the preflop action, QT is a completely implausible holdings for you, to say nothing of T7.)

You played your hand like it was a semibluff, against a guy who was screaming strength, and he picked you off.

Final point: DON'T RUN BIG BLUFFS AGAINST OTHER BIG STACKS. Just don't, ever. Your chips are your weapons; when you have many, you should distribute them across many moves to reduce variance (and because the times you take down the pot or get lucky and make your draw will offset the times they don't work, and usually get you more chips). You blew your tournament on one hand. It's rare indeed that I make a move / semi-bluff for all my chips, even less so when I am in extremely comfortable position.

And there's no reason for him to be "conservative" if he thinks he has a big edge and you're willing to put all your chips in. Even big stacks will gamble for large chunks of their stack if the gamble is particularly favorable.

Well, that was long, and a little firm in tone, but I hope it was informative.

The basic lesson is:
1)Don't get enamored with your own fancy play, no matter how smart it makes you feel to make a big move. (Because when it doesn't work, you'll feel equally stupid, and be in much worse shape than you would be better shape if it had worked.)
2)If you're going to make a big bluff, your betting sequence has to plausibly match the hand you're representing. Yours looks more like JT or TT than anything else.

Spladle Master · #6 10-05-2005, 06:18 PM

I think you summed it up pretty eloquently here

"I suck at MTTs btw."

but should replace "MTTs" with "poker and life."

#7 10-05-2005, 06:23 PM

All I can say is that the raise preflop is awful, you should limp but now you raised. Ok. Why did you call the re-raise? That's an easy fold right there.

Even if they get conservative, you shouldn't call re-raises with J10...

And one other thing, why did you have to get involved in this hand at all? 100-200 blinds and you have a stack of 27705... that's over 200 bb's. I would have relaxed and waited for better hands. I'd say ok to a limp tho.

bweiser8311962 · #8 10-05-2005, 06:35 PM

by my calculations he is getting 3.7:1 to make that preflop call. He's about a 4:1 dog.

Isn't that close enough to make the call?

#9 10-05-2005, 06:40 PM

Sure but he have a really big stack and something should tell him not to call a min raise with J10 here... If he is going to make the call he must ask himself if he can fold top pair here (if he hits the J and two low cards come), if he cant he shouldn't be in the hand. The flop have to hit him big time here so even if it's 3.7:1 in odds, I would still fold it to the raise 100% of the time.

bweiser8311962 · #10 10-05-2005, 06:47 PM

I also think this is what the pros would call merely a semibluff on the turn.

You have 13 outs to make the best hand.