AA gets 3bet on the turn

Ryan11 · #1 10-04-2005, 03:33 AM

Villian is 87/6.7/0.67

Was this turn raise ok? After the 3bet I'm pretty sure I'm behind since he's so passive.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 13 BB

NLSoldier · #2 10-04-2005, 03:36 AM

Turn raise is fine, you cant fold to a 3bet because you have outs even if behind. You have kind of a tough decision on the river if he bets it. Im not sure waht to make of his check, but I dont mind your check behind.

Jeff W · #3 10-04-2005, 03:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Turn raise is fine, you cant fold to a 3bet because you have outs even if behind.

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I disagree. Villain is very passive and his flop line screams strength. I'd just call down/bet when checked to after he 3-bets the flop.

aslowjoe · #4 10-04-2005, 03:46 AM

.67 aggresion with 87VPIP is not super passive and players like that do tend to overbet there hands. I would play it the same. One of my biggest faults is I am a weak value bettor. I would agonize over this one and probably check the river.

Jeff W · #5 10-04-2005, 04:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
.67 aggresion with 87VPIP is not super passive

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider the following:

A graph with an x-axis and a y-axis.

The y-axis values are AFs for a player with 30 VPIP.

The x-axis values are AFs for a player with 87 VPIP.

A point on the graph represents an intersection of equivalent AFs.

Example: A point at x=1.5, y=3.0 means that an 87 VPIP player with 1.5 AF is equivalently aggressive(relative to hand value) to a 30 VPIP player with a 3.0 AF(Actual example is fictional).

The slope(y/x) increases as x increases... this means that (x-y) near the origin is smaller than (x-y) farther along the graph.

So, an 87 VPIP player w/ .67 AF is still passive. His pfr=7 corroborates his AF.

Any questions? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Edit: Another way to state this is as follows:

Dx(Dx(f(x)=y)) is a positively increasing function across a domain x=a->b.

NLSoldier · #6 10-04-2005, 04:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Turn raise is fine, you cant fold to a 3bet because you have outs even if behind.

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I disagree. Villain is very passive and his flop line screams strength. I'd just call down/bet when checked to after he 3-bets the flop.

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well granted he can have just about anything, but there is seriously not much we are behind on this flop. If you dont want to pop the turn then I think we should cap the flop and calldown if he donks the turn.

aslowjoe · #7 10-04-2005, 04:16 AM

okay. So like last time I was in a math class GM still made good cars so I will take your word for it. That still makes our villan around 1.30(right) if he was 30VPIP and being he was obviously unskilled at the game of poker I can see him getting excited with top pair a good % of the time. I will probably admit that the turn raise is marginal.

Lmn55d · #8 10-04-2005, 11:57 AM

interesting. So what would you say a .67 AF player with VPIP 87 would be equivalent to for a 30 VPIP player. In your example you liken it to a VPIP 30 player with AF 1.5. Do you think this is correct?

setjes · #9 10-04-2005, 12:58 PM

Even when ur able to make this kind of comparison, I think u should not forget about the fact that most loose (aggressive) players have a different style than tight (aggressive) players. I've noticed that, lets say, a 60/15/1.5 player blufraises/bets alot more but actually 'value' bets (I mean when he has a piece of the board, not necessarily the best hand) less than a avarage TAG. It isn't uncommon for these LAGS to bet with air and check/call with bottom/mid pair.

Jeff W · #10 10-04-2005, 02:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
well granted he can have just about anything, but there is seriously not much we are behind on this flop. If you dont want to pop the turn then I think we should cap the flop and calldown if he donks the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I like that line better. Saves us between .5 and 1.5 BB when we're behind and I feel we're right up against the equity threshold where this is correct.