Waited for turn to raise JJ

aargh57 · #1 10-03-2005, 12:56 PM

Crypto 6 max 1/2 brit pound table (6handed)

Players are very weak passive (SB has about a 70%VPIP and TAF of 0.44)

Hero in MP w J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG calls, Hero raises, CO folds, button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop (10 SB)
2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, button calls

At this point I only called because I figured there was no way to protect my hand. There are 13 SB in the pot so a raise would give anyone (except button) 14 to one (barring SB's reraising). Is this one of those "wait for the turn to raise" hands or should I have raised here because of my equity edge? Anyway,

Turn (7.5 BB)
6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, hero ?

Not really as concerned about turn play, more wondering whether I played the flop correctly or not?

lautzutao · #2 10-03-2005, 12:59 PM

I think that's a really bad move...raise that flop

*EDIT* This is your dream flop, rainbow low board. If you can't raise JJ here...

Weatherhead03 · #3 10-03-2005, 01:03 PM

That flop is a must raise.

MrWookie47 · #4 10-03-2005, 01:04 PM

There aren't as many cards you fear as in the TT example in SSH. There's no flush draw, a straight draw is less likely, and there are fewer overcards. I'd raise that flop.

aargh57 · #5 10-03-2005, 01:13 PM

Now this is something I can't figure out. Of all the hands I've seen posted on this board that are similar to the TT hand in SSH, I've never seen any of them recommended to wait for the turn to protect your hand. I guess I'm missing something but we have a large flop where a bunch of cards can hurt you on the turn and almost no chance of getting someone to fold. Why is this hand so much different than the TT hand. I understand that the TT hand has more cards that can hurt us but unless we get speciffically TT with that type of flop when else do we use this play. In SSH he says you should often wait for the turn to raise when
1. The flop bet comes from your left
2. The pot is extremely large.

Aren't these two criteria met in this hand?

OK, flame away.

MrWookie47 · #6 10-03-2005, 01:20 PM

You have to estimate your equity. In the TT example, there were many more bad cards that could come because there was a flush draw, the straight draw was more likely to connect with your opponents hands, the cards were more likely to have paired with those of your opponents, and there are more overcards. Thus, in the TT example, hero had a smaller equity edge on the flop, making a raise not overwhelmingly +EV. Now in your case, you have a bigger edge, making raising the flop much more +EV. There is the chance that waiting it still somewhat more +EV, but I'm inclined raise in this case.

Jimmy The Fish · #7 10-03-2005, 01:22 PM

You have position on two of the three players. A flop raise might chase the button (giving you the best position), and it could very well give you the chance to see a free river card.

Flat-calling gives you no information about the aggressor's hand. He could have bet out with A5 or A3, or two overcards; a raise forces him to think about how valuable his hand might really be. If SB comes back and 3-bets your flop raise, he thinks he's already made a hand; you'll need that information when evaluating your options on the turn.

You probably had the best hand preflop, and you probably have the best hand on the flop; but JJ can get outdrawn in a hurry. Keeping everyone in the hand with a flat-call is not in your best interests.

lautzutao · #8 10-03-2005, 01:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now this is something I can't figure out. Of all the hands I've seen posted on this board that are similar to the TT hand in SSH, I've never seen any of them recommended to wait for the turn to protect your hand. I guess I'm missing something but we have a large flop where a bunch of cards can hurt you on the turn and almost no chance of getting someone to fold. Why is this hand so much different than the TT hand. I understand that the TT hand has more cards that can hurt us but unless we get speciffically TT with that type of flop when else do we use this play. In SSH he says you should often wait for the turn to raise when
1. The flop bet comes from your left
2. The pot is extremely large.

Aren't these two criteria met in this hand?

OK, flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree if it were a scarier board. But there is no flush draw, and while a straight is possible it isn't likely.

I believe these wait for the turn raise issues come up when the combined table equity is much larger than the individual edge you have on each player left. I don't see that here. You are SO far ahead of the rest of the table this raise is for straight value.

*EDIT I agree with you when you say that most posts do not advocate raising the turn. There was one in particular a couple weeks ago that was rather heated over this issue. I don't think it is an issue a lot of us understand(myself included). But I think it's an important issue to discuss as to understand Equity edges and what equity really means to us as far a poker is concerned.

gharp · #9 10-03-2005, 01:24 PM

If I could be sure that the SB would bet out and all of them would call on the turn, then I'd prefer waiting until the turn, but you can never be sure of that (especially because you've got a read that the SB is passive). Raise the flop and take their money when you're sure they'll call.

Aaron W. · #10 10-03-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now this is something I can't figure out. Of all the hands I've seen posted on this board that are similar to the TT hand in SSH, I've never seen any of them recommended to wait for the turn to protect your hand. I guess I'm missing something but we have a large flop where a bunch of cards can hurt you on the turn and almost no chance of getting someone to fold. Why is this hand so much different than the TT hand. I understand that the TT hand has more cards that can hurt us but unless we get speciffically TT with that type of flop when else do we use this play. In SSH he says you should often wait for the turn to raise when
1. The flop bet comes from your left
2. The pot is extremely large.

Aren't these two criteria met in this hand?

OK, flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well... the pot is not "extremely" large. In that example (KK capped preflop), I believe that the pot was something like 22+ SB, and here it's only about 14-15 (only about 67% of the size).

The bet *did* come from your left, but there were only two players trapped between you instead of 4 or 5. It makes a huge difference.

If you *never* waited until the turn to raise, you're not making a huge error. There are many cases where it does not apply, and only a few where it does.