Weird set hand - 2/4 6max

TheWorstPlayer · #1 09-29-2005, 09:15 AM

Only been at table an orbit or two. Villain hasn't done anything too extreme, but he has raised maybe three times in the first two orbits, once to 6bb from the BN against one limper so perhaps he is aggressive, but perhaps not, obviously too early to really tell. What do I do on this turn? What's my plan for a club river, assuming I get to the river? What's my plan for a diamond river? What's my plan for a T river?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

UTG ($659.36)
TWP ($424.40)
CO ($0)
Button ($421.60)
SB ($866.40)
BB ($696.05)

Preflop: TWP is MP with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
TWP raises to $15, Button calls $15, 2 folds.

Flop: ($36) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
TWP bets $35, Button calls $35.

Turn: ($106) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
TWP...?

jkkkk · #2 09-29-2005, 09:40 AM

Check-call turn, I don't really like any T or [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], I probably check-fold river unless he puts out a really weak bet.

nietzreznor · #3 09-29-2005, 10:26 AM

Without a read, I probably check-call the turn. You have a strong hand, but I would hate to get raised here.

Not sure about the river... if it bricks, I probably c/c or bet/fold. c/c to pick off a possible missed draw is what I might do, but if this guy's aggressive he probably would have raised the flop with a nice draw, so it isn't a given thats what he has.
If the river is a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or T... dunno, either c/f or bet/fold... I probably block.

TheWorstPlayer · #4 09-29-2005, 10:31 AM

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If the river is a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or T... dunno, either c/f or bet/fold... I probably block.

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OK, let's forget a T for now because then I'm playing the board and I was just asking if I should bluff to try to avoid a split, but that question isn't really that important. But if the river is a club, how much do you bet? I think we're running pretty close to being PCed.

GrunchCan · #5 09-29-2005, 11:00 AM

The opponent is unknown enough for me to not give him credit for being overly aggro, and I bet for value.

I can see how this might not be good, however, becasue it creates a pretty big pot when the opponent probably has 9-12 outs to beat you. It could be my limit tendancies sneaking out that make me want to bet now. I really hate the odea of betting now and having to check-fold the river.

I'm thinking that I can see the logic behind check-calling the turn and check-calling a river brick (I'd consider a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to be a brick), or check-folding a river club or ten. I really doubt we're splitting when a ten falls. What hand is the opponent here with that doesn't involve a king?

Edit: Why do we want to block a river [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] that we weren't planning to check-call on? I don't get that.

TheWorstPlayer · #6 09-29-2005, 11:19 AM

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Why do we want to block a river [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] that we weren't planning to check-call on? I don't get that.

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Let's say stacks would be 2x the pot on the river. Then if we check and he pushes all in, what do we do? Maybe he is overbetting with the nuts to get a call or maybe he is overbetting to bluff because he has nothing and we showed weakness by checking?

Also, he may check behind with, say, QJ.

So, instead of checking we might bet, say, half pot. This bet may look like we are value betting the nuts ourselves (depends on turn action perhaps) and therefore makes it less likely, although of course not impossible, for our opponent to push all in as a bluff. Also, he may call this bet with top two pair and we will get more value.

GrunchCan · #7 09-29-2005, 11:27 AM

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Why do we want to block a river [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] that we weren't planning to check-call on? I don't get that.

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Let's say stacks would be 2x the pot on the river. Then if we check and he pushes all in, what do we do? Maybe he is overbetting with the nuts to get a call or maybe he is overbetting to bluff because he has nothing and we showed weakness by checking?

Also, he may check behind with, say, QJ.

So, instead of checking we might bet, say, half pot. This bet may look like we are value betting the nuts ourselves (depends on turn action perhaps) and therefore makes it less likely, although of course not impossible, for our opponent to push all in as a bluff. Also, he may call this bet with top two pair and we will get more value.

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So, let me get this straight.

- If we have a marginal hand and the opponent might bluff if we check, then we should block-fold instead of check-folding or check-calling.

And a blocking bet should look just like a nut hand value bet, whatever size that may be.

Voltron87 · #8 09-29-2005, 11:43 AM

I bet 50 or so on the turn. I still think our hand often has value here. If he raises its a fold. If he calls the turn bet I'd bet small on the river again. If you get raised you get out. That is pretty much my plan of all non paired rivers. Of course if a king or ace comes its shutdown.

TheWorstPlayer · #9 09-29-2005, 12:02 PM

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So, let me get this straight.

- If we have a marginal hand and the opponent might bluff if we check, then we should block-fold instead of check-folding or check-calling.

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Unfortunately, it really depends. If you have a villain who you know will never bluff then you can just check/fold. If you have a villain who you know will never call with a worse hand but always value bets small then you can check/call. Etc. It really just depends. I wasn't giving you a rule for WHEN you should throw a blocking bet, I was just explaining the rationale behind it when you DO throw a blocking bet.

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And a blocking bet should look just like a nut hand value bet, whatever size that may be.

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Pretty much. Only problem is when stacks aren't deep enough to get away when you make your blocking bet because you're getting such great odds on the last little bit of your stack. So in these situations, blocking bets are usually not appropriate. Unless you think villain might read a really small bet as being strong in which case you can make a really small blocking bet. Often, for instance, a min-bet will confused opponents on the river in a big pot and with a marginal hand they will just want to get to showdown instead of raising into what is potentially the nuts trying to induce a raise.

PinkSteel · #10 09-29-2005, 12:25 PM

This looks like the anti-WAWB hand, and Villain's position benefits him hugely, so I would play small or play for it all.

But you very likely have the better hand at the turn, right? He could have as little as a Q and be figuring your flop bet for continuation, or A9 hoping to make top two. And he's making maximum use of his position by flat calling you, giving no additional information.

I would take position out of it, invite a drawing hand to make a mistake, and push.

The massive overbet might even look like a semibluff to two pair. And if he has a T and the board doesn't pair, you're going to lose some money here whether you push or not, so I push.

[ Disclaimer: out of practice / suck at 6max / don't play this level / etc. ]