I think this is clear.....You guys agree?

Hallett · #1 09-29-2005, 01:24 AM

Live 4/8 Limit game. Ridiculously loose, and two aggressive guys raising, three betting and merrily capping with crap. It is one of those games where if you raise, it is like waving a red cape in front of a bull.

Hero is early middle position with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Early aggressive guy calls, folded to me. I remember page 175 of HPFAP, and decide not to raise. Called by three more people, and the button, also aggressive, raises. Called to me, I call. Old guy with funky glasses now makes it three bets, naturally it is called to the button, who understanding the obligations and responsibilities of holding the button, promptly caps. Called to me, and I.................

FOLD.

What do you think? Pot is massive, and I fold for two bets. My thoughts were that old guy has AA, KK, AKs or AKo. If an A comes, the hand is going to get expensive, and I might make a great second best hand. I decided that I am in trouble no matter what. I have a great Q, but that is it. Is this weak tight or practical and well reasoned?

milesdyson · #2 09-29-2005, 01:27 AM

read on old man. also are the two aggressive guys UTG and Button?

i would basically never fold this. gamble it up with these idiots.

Hallett · #3 09-29-2005, 01:29 AM

UTG and Button are the LAG's, Old guy is a rock.

MrWookie47 · #4 09-29-2005, 01:30 AM

TEEEERRRRRRIIIIIBBBBBBLLLLLLEEEEEEE!

Raise the first time around. HPFAP is for games where your opponents think, not 4/8 live which features the worst poker players on planet earth.

And then you tell me in the same breath that guys are capping with utter crap, and that you're folding AQo to a cap?! Wow, dude. You have some work to do. Hell, the pot is so big at this point you could almost call and plan to fold any flop where you don't flop quads.

Hallett · #5 09-29-2005, 01:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
TEEEERRRRRRIIIIIBBBBBBLLLLLLEEEEEEE!

Raise the first time around. HPFAP is for games where your opponents think, not 4/8 live which features the worst poker players on planet earth.

And then you tell me in the same breath that guys are capping with utter crap, and that you're folding AQo to a cap?! Wow, dude. You have some work to do. Hell, the pot is so big at this point you could almost call and plan to fold any flop where you don't flop quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

I agree, that is why I posted the hand, I need to get spanked.

Even if you knew for certain (you don't, but pretend) that Old Guy has AKs, and you are horribly dominated, do you still call?

MrWookie47 · #6 09-29-2005, 01:38 AM

Absolutely. You are much, much less of a dog than the approximately 20:1 that the pot is offering you. Hell, even if he shows me AA, in which case I'm a much worse dog, I think you could still call.

Nothing is certain in poker, but if you never, ever folded for one more bet preflop, you'd be doing OK. Putting in the first bet (or two, if you raised) may be a mistake, but it most situations, you almost always have to call one more bet preflop even you know exactly what two cards your opponent has.

milesdyson · #7 09-29-2005, 01:38 AM

before i get to anything of real "content," you know you really could have made this post a little nicer. following the action here was like trying to masturbate with my eye socket.

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is clear.....You guys agree?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TEEEERRRRRRIIIIIBBBBBBLLLLLLEEEEEEE!

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree, that is why I posted the hand

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Even if you knew for certain (you don't, but pretend) that Old Guy has AKs, and you are horribly dominated, do you still call?

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you could figure it out to practice some poker math... the real problem is actually applying what you figure out (unfortunately we can not see old man's hole cards).

and he is calling a final two bets preflop, not one Wook.

Hallett · #8 09-29-2005, 01:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. You are much, much less of a dog than the approximately 20:1 that the pot is offering you. Hell, even if he shows me AA, in which case I'm a much worse dog, I think you could still call.

Nothing is certain in poker, but if you never, ever folded for one more bet preflop, you'd be doing OK. Putting in the first bet (or two, if you raised) may be a mistake, but it most situations, you almost always have to call one more bet preflop even you know exactly what two cards your opponent has.

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Not that I am disagreeing, but it is two bets back to me.

#9 09-29-2005, 01:43 AM

Worst play evar.

The only time this should ever not be called is if your table has no cap then you can re raise it.

Hallett · #10 09-29-2005, 01:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Worst play evar.

The only time this should ever not be called is if your table has no cap then you can re raise it.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree I made a mistake, re-raising seems a bit foolish. I am likely ahead of the nutbars here, but likely behind the Old Guy. If I am behind, each bet that goes in is +EV for him, and if I am dominated by something like AKs, then even the random hands of the opponents are gaining more from every bet that goes in than I am. Calling I can see, re-raising just seems wrong.