Can physical laws create information? - for JeffV

I want some other input on this too: Can anyone else add anything?

(From the SETI thread)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OOO: I'm attempting to explore the issue of whether information rich systems can result from natural forces and processes, or whether they all require intelligence.

[/ QUOTE ]

JeffV: Information = meaningful text, that is complex, in a specific order, and is also non-repeating.

Information can't come from natural or physical laws because they always repeat. They insure that you can't get anything more meaningful-since it's a law it always repeats the same pattern.

It's my contention that any time we see complex information it has been created/authored/designed or boofed- (that's what my high school biology teacher used to refer to creation as. The boofed theory.)

That should get us started huh?

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, sounds good.

Example of information coming from natural laws that doesn't involve intelligence: Bacteria developing resistance to antiobiotic drugs. They generate and store completely new information within their genetic code, and pass it on. They do this purely through through the forces of physics (atom bonding, electron attraction/repulsion). There is no intelligent input. New information is created.

I hear you saying: Ah! But they're been created by God to do that.

Perhaps, but that's completely irrelevant. New information is being created by purely physical processes. Think about it. All that was needed for this to occur was for the molecules to be in the right arrangement to begin with, just like the transistors of a computer (which also works on purely natural forces). So what we disagree on is not with the creation of new information is possible by physical laws, but rather whether molecules can get into the right arrangement on their own. Do you agree? (Just to clarify, I'm asking your position here, not trying to make a point [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

Now let's have a look at this contention:

[ QUOTE ]
Information can't come from natural or physical laws because they always repeat. They insure that you can't get anything more meaningful-since it's a law it always repeats the same pattern.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not quite true. Imagine a planet full of nothing but elements in various concentrations, especially carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, and an energy source. With nothing but physicals laws, these basic elements will form into amino acids, polymers, and self assembling molecules. Each of these molecules has a code to create other molecules of its kind - by purely natural laws - and even to create more complex polymers through natural forces. How is this not information? It may not be tremendously complex, but is that the point? (See above about bacteria).

Can anyone more knowledgable add anything or fix anything? I'm not a biologist or chemist, I've only studied introductory level at uni.

Interesting post. Good work with your examples. Good luck, though, if you are expecting acknowledgment of the validity of your points by Jeff V et al.

Just to make this point clear regarding bacteria and antibiotic resistance:

Either

- Bacteria encoded this new information through purely natural processes OR

- God/ The Holy Spirit had a hand in helping bacteria develop this new genetic coding AND therefore there is some part of bacteria that functions via non-natural processes (which scientists should inevitably discover, because something will be out of whack).

I don't see a third option...do you?

So therefore, our disagreement is not about physical laws creating information (provided you accept #1), but instead about whether these molecules can get into these incredibly complex arrangements (such as life) to begin with. ?

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]
I want some other input on this too: Can anyone else add anything?

(From the SETI thread)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OOO: I'm attempting to explore the issue of whether information rich systems can result from natural forces and processes, or whether they all require intelligence.

[/ QUOTE ]

JeffV: Information = meaningful text, that is complex, in a specific order, and is also non-repeating.

Information can't come from natural or physical laws because they always repeat. They insure that you can't get anything more meaningful-since it's a law it always repeats the same pattern.

It's my contention that any time we see complex information it has been created/authored/designed or boofed- (that's what my high school biology teacher used to refer to creation as. The boofed theory.)

That should get us started huh?

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, sounds good.

Example of information coming from natural laws that doesn't involve intelligence: Bacteria developing resistance to antiobiotic drugs. They generate and store completely new information within their genetic code, and pass it on. They do this purely through through the forces of physics (atom bonding, electron attraction/repulsion). There is no intelligent input. New information is created.

I hear you saying: Ah! But they're been created by God to do that.

Perhaps, but that's completely irrelevant. New information is being created by purely physical processes. Think about it. All that was needed for this to occur was for the molecules to be in the right arrangement to begin with, just like the transistors of a computer (which also works on purely natural forces). So what we disagree on is not with the creation of new information is possible by physical laws, but rather whether molecules can get into the right arrangement on their own. Do you agree? (Just to clarify, I'm asking your position here, not trying to make a point [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

Now let's have a look at this contention:

[ QUOTE ]
Information can't come from natural or physical laws because they always repeat. They insure that you can't get anything more meaningful-since it's a law it always repeats the same pattern.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not quite true. Imagine a planet full of nothing but elements in various concentrations, especially carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, and an energy source. With nothing but physicals laws, these basic elements will form into amino acids, polymers, and self assembling molecules. Each of these molecules has a code to create other molecules of its kind - by purely natural laws - and even to create more complex polymers through natural forces. How is this not information? It may not be tremendously complex, but is that the point? (See above about bacteria).

Can anyone more knowledgable add anything or fix anything? I'm not a biologist or chemist, I've only studied introductory level at uni.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I understand "information", yes.

Any natural system which is a local instance of increasing entopy in the universe, is by definition , an example of a system of increasing information. To take a simple example there is more information in an ice cube than the same water molecules in liquid form. Information arising from natural laws is nothing mystical, mysterious or anything like that. Iit is just how things are in places with increasing entropy, eg the earth.

For example intelligent life and non-intelligent life bacteria) are examples of systems of increased information that we "know" arose out of natural physical law and nothing more.

No need for God, or any other non-natural law explanation. That is just how it is, ie as determined by the natural physical law of your question.


Another example. You have 2 bags with one empty and the other one holding 10 $5 poker chips and 5 $10 chips. You take out all the 5$ chips and put them in the other bag. The local system of the 2 bags and the chips has more information after the sorting than before. This increase of information has come about by purely natural laws.

[Jeff V]

Good post.

I'm at work right now, and my first thoughts are I should have been more clear about the complexity of the systems i was talking about. But I believe I said "any" I so I definately won't try it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

At first glance I'd say that I'm not sure that resistance to antibiotics is information, as much as evolution on a microlevel.

I'll respond more specifically in a bit.

BTW I don't think it's right that you(OOO) and to a much higher extent kidluckee claim I invoke the boof theory to these posts on a regular basis when I don't think that's the fact.

Jeff.

[Jeff V]

First off I will quote myself as to the clarification I eluded to earlier.

[ QUOTE ]
It's my contention that any time we see complex information it has been created/authored/designed or boofed-

[/ QUOTE ]

So case closed! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
Example of information coming from natural laws that doesn't involve intelligence: Bacteria developing resistance to antiobiotic drugs. They generate and store completely new information within their genetic code, and pass it on.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are talking about a purely physical process. This happens slowly over time. When we make rattlesnake anti-venom we inject a small amount of venom into a horse. Over time with increasing doses the horse becomes immune, and we can then make an antidote.

The horse did not create information to do this it was a physical process that takes time- a reaction. It's the same thing with bacteria.

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information can't come from natural or physical laws because they always repeat. They insure that you can't get anything more meaningful-since it's a law it always repeats the same pattern.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is not quite true. Imagine a planet full of nothing but elements in various concentrations, especially carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, and an energy source. With nothing but physicals laws, these basic elements will form into amino acids, polymers, and self assembling molecules. Each of these molecules has a code to create other molecules of its kind - by purely natural laws - and even to create more complex polymers through natural forces.

[/ QUOTE ]


Are you talking about the premortial soup experiment? If so you shoould know that it has been totally falsified although it still appears in some text books.

If not what you are talking about is possible. However the odds of that happening are so minute.

By the way don't forget to address this from the same thread, since my original example was regarding DNA.

[ QUOTE ]
If information is a massless quantity, and therefore not materialistic how can any materialistic cause explain it's origin?

This is another problem IMO.Information is a different entity that can't be broken down to matter or energy-yet it's real.

Finally what about the fact that this information is at the root of all biological function?



[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless of many peoples idea I don't claim to have an answer/agenda to everything. I do find the subject very interesting, and I do sincerely appreciate the opportunity to be challenged.

Jeff

[RJT]

Since you congratulated the new kid (Jasper109), might I congratulate you? Your thread, thus far, seems to be a first, too. The first thread ever on this forum to have a civil discussion. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]