I don't know how to fold. (Long)

Surfbullet · #1 09-21-2005, 05:49 PM

Hey HUSH,

I don't know how to fold. In fact, I pay off like a slot machine.

This is a recent revalation to me. MAxx pointed out a hand to me that is a clear turn fold after a passive player 3bets me 3way on the turn...I've got AJ on a AKxx board. The HH plays out and I of course pay off the turn 3bet and a river bet.

I'm tired of this. I've spent so much effort studying my game and coping with aggression to let such a fundamental flaw hold me back.

Also, it's not that I'm a poor hand-reader...I do an okay job. It's that i don't ACT on what my hand-reading tells me. I think it's 2-tabling(I'm looking at you, Grisgra!) time for a few days, maybe a week.

If you've got the patience, i'm going to line up some calldowns here. Ratings 1(must call)-10(must fold) could be useful. Maybe just look at 1 or 2 of the hands and leave some thoughts. I really appreciate it.

1

Villain is 40/22/2.4 over 389 hands. aggro but not maniac.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

2

Same villain.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 3 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

3

Villain is 63/8.5/1 over 60 hands

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $10. MP posts a blind of $15.
MP (poster) checks, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG (poster) calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG folds, MP folds, CO calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, CO folds, Hero calls.

River: (13.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

4

Villain is 43/21/1.3 over 55

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

5
This one made me want to throw up
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Villain is 75/2.5/.8 over 81 hands.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

6

Button is 38/5/.9 over 119
BB is 52/12/1.3 over 89

at least I finally got away from this one...

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

7

Villain is 41/22/1.06 over 175

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Thanks for taking the time to read + comment.

Surf

ISF · #2 09-21-2005, 06:01 PM

Hands 1 and 7 I fold the turn the rest look fine. Even though the river CR sucks in hand 5 I think the value bet is good, and you have to pay off here.

I also dont threebet the flop, given that you did I wouldnt bet this turn.

NLSoldier · #3 09-21-2005, 06:02 PM

I don't know how to fold either, its ok. Its better than trying to learn how and having stuff like this happen...

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (16.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has 8c Tc (one pair, fives).
BB has 8d 7s (two pair, sevens and fives).
Outcome: BB wins 18.50 BB. 

edit- I didnt intend to hijack this thread, so if you want to reply and yell at me for how bad of a fold this was, you must first reply to ALL of surf's hands.

Roy6 · #4 09-21-2005, 06:04 PM

Hand1: I'd pay off too, maybe a leak (6/10)

Hand2: Raise preflop? (7/10)

Hand3: I convince myself he has pair+flush draw, I can't fold this either (6/10)

Hand4: On better days I fold on the flop (9/10)

Hand5: OMG, you played it fine I think

Hand6: I'd fold instantly on the river, what did you put Button on?

Hand7: against this player I'll check the turn and call any river

edit: I don't play this limit so a grain of salt needed

SomethingClever · #5 09-21-2005, 06:37 PM

1: In my game, easy turn fold. At 10/20, I suspect it's more like a 5 or 6.
2: 3. I have a hard time folding this. Especially if he's been playing back at me a bit. I might raise preflop in this hand as well.
3: 2
4: 1
5: Yuck. I think I check behind on the river. If not, I def. fold to the c/r. 10.
6: 10, I fold to the first bet on the river. With both players in and the board like that, you're beating nothing.
7: 9, fold to turn c/r.

NLSoldier · #6 09-21-2005, 06:51 PM

I sometimes fold the turn in hand one and sometimes in hand 7. I pretty much play the rest the same.

oreogod · #7 09-21-2005, 06:52 PM

Ive talked about this in IRC over the course of the last week...my advice: Do No Make Automatic Desicions.

Much like your AJ hand u mentioned...before u automatically (ie "without thinking") call the guy down....think about why the hell u are calling him down. Take 1-2 secs...dont just hit the call button w/o giving it thought...u know the feeling, you say "[censored], I know Im beat" yet hit the call button w/o thinking.

Dont make automatic desicions...dont bet just to bet, or call just to call...u should always understand why u are doing what u are doing at the tables. Look at the guys numbers...and even if u are multitabling, type a note on the guy if he does something that stands out. Always think before u do what you are going to do.

Obviously u dont need to take 5-10 secs to make each desicion, the human brain works way faster than that. But if u take that 1-2 second "breather" u should do better in these situations.

Im going to look at the hands now...but seriously raise preflop in Hand 2.

joker122 · #8 09-21-2005, 06:53 PM

1) i give it a solid *4* - it's a drawy board and no draws got there.

2) it's really tough because with a PFR and an AF that high you'd think his button open limp is a monster, but he's also a 44vip and that means he does a ton of limping. I think I'd flip a coin here - *5*

3) i'd call this down every time. i see QQ-99 played like this all the time - *1*

4) i have top pair, i'm heads up, and i'm getting 8:1? *1*

5) i call here too, if nothing else to get a better read. *3*

6) yep. *10*

7) numbers don't tell the whole story - this one is very dependent on his actual play. i guess i could find a fold here *7*

dave44 · #9 09-21-2005, 06:59 PM

I think I'd rather fold the turn in hand 7 and I think hand 3 is pretty close too as that turn 3-bet indicates a lot of strength.

I'd like to focus on hand 1 for a second though. I used to simply fold the turn in spots like this, but I have begun to think more about the situation and realized that my strategy is highly exploitable on a flop like that one. Look at my range of hands...

Folding Hands...
AK - 16
AJ - 16
AT - 16
A9s - 4
A8s - 4
KJ - 16
KT - 16
K9s - 4
JTs - 4
Total: 96

Hands playing on...
AQ - 12
KQ - 12
QJ - 12
QTs - 3
AA - 6
KK - 6
QQ - 3
JJ - 6
TT - 6
99 - 6
88 - 6
77 - 6
66 - 3
Total: 87

Take 1 combo from each on the top for a club draw and add it to the calling hands and you get a ratio of 87:96. 6 out of 46 times we hit on the turn and play on so that makes it 76:107, so that 41.5% of the time we're folding.

Villain is getting 3.75:2 odds on a straight bluff so it just needs to work 2/5.75 = 34.8%. Being that he'll often have outs against many of our hands, his bluff can work even less and show a profit.

This has led me to conclude you should be calling down with AK, especially against an aggressive player like this one.

oreogod · #10 09-21-2005, 07:15 PM

Hand 1: Close. Depends on how he plays draws, mid pairs, top pair...etc. If behind u could have 6outs making the call on the turn breakeven (w/implied odds). You could also very well be ahead here.

2: Raise preflop. Looks like u are looking at two pair. Ive seen ppl in my game do this w/ top pair, good kicker though.

3:Sucks but I think u have to get to showdown. Unless hes horrible u are not looking at 2s. Most likely 66-QQ. If he has 66 or 88 here its one of those situations where u are probably going to lose a few bets (as u usually would w/ cracked Aces).

4:*1-2*

5:I really dont like how this one was played. I think the turn raise is decent, depends if hes a folder or not, which is probably not the case. But when he 3-bets u, u need to put some serious thought into what he has. I think the river bet is pretty bad imo, and calling the river raise is pretty bad to.

6: Fold to river bet.

7:At least fold to turn c/r. I might check the turn here, depends on the player and if I can fold.

I think the my answers should be solid, but Im in a rush and a bit tired. Its unfortunate but there are just some situations u are going to lose money to no matter what. As it is, there are so many fucktards in shorthanded poker it makes it tough sometimes.