I don't like folding to a min-raise but...

#1 09-20-2005, 05:02 PM

This is from a Party 20+2. I felt like, given this guy's stack, a min raise would be enough to put him to the test. Even though he only min-re-raises, I'm going to be pot committed to call an all in if I call here, right?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (10 handed) converter

UTG+1 (t805)
UTG+2 (t1234)
MP1 (t4165)
MP2 (t2072)
MP3 (t1467)
CO (t2116)
Hero (t8066)
SB (t1070)
BB (t2752)
UTG (t155)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls t150, 1 fold, MP3 calls t150, 1 fold, Hero calls t150, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (t675) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets t325, Hero raises to t650, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP3 raises to t975, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t2300

Sykes · #2 09-20-2005, 06:35 PM

hero, totally misplayed his hand

either:

A. Fold pre-flop
B. Raise more than min
C. Call and raise/bet a safe turn.

TomHimself · #3 09-20-2005, 07:07 PM

why are you limping k8s? why are you miniraising. the way the hand played i just push and hope he has a draw

nath · #4 09-20-2005, 07:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hero, totally misplayed his hand

either:

A. Fold pre-flop
B. Raise more than min
C. Call and raise/bet a safe turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You've got a big stack; use it to pressure opponents, not make small bets in the hopes they'll go away.
If you play this: Consider raising preflop to clear out limpers / make them pay.
On the flop, make a raise that ACTUALLY puts him to a decision for all his chips, not a baby raise which is screaming "I think my hand is good but I'll go away if you're strong here." So he tells you he is-- which he could with any reasonable holding, if he thinks you're just trying to push him around-- and you go away. Not well played.

DyessMan89 · #5 09-20-2005, 07:36 PM

Preflop- I think you missplayed this, actually I know so. Id either fold this or make a healthy size raise, to 1050. (3X BB + 2X Limpers)

Flop- If you feel that your hand is good, you have to push. It will accomplish everything a min-raise does, only you have more fold equity.

#6 09-20-2005, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop- I think you missplayed this, actually I know so. Id either fold this or make a healthy size raise, to 1050. (3X BB + 2X Limpers)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you there.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop- If you feel that your hand is good, you have to push. It will accomplish everything a min-raise does, only you have more fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I posted the hand. If a push accomplishes everything a min-raise does, then why push? There is 1650 in the pot before I min-raise. Pushing costs 700 more than min-raising, that's like 8% of my stack. What hands does he fold to a push but not to a min-raise? For pushing to be correct, he would have to hold a hand that would fold to a push but not to a min-raise nearly 1/3 of the time.

Doesn't my min raise, which forces him to commit 1/3 of his stack, effectively put him to a decision for all of his chips? Isn't the value of being the top stack the ability to force people to make a decision for all of their chips without actually risking that many chips yourself? Do you really think he bet out and is now min-re-raising with nothing more than a draw? It's not impossible, but I don't think it happens often enough to make pushing more profitable than min-raising. And once I'm re-raised, I think I'm likely to have 3 outs or less, in which case folding is clear.

If I had some reason to think this Villain was better than your average 20+2 player, it would be different, but if we assume he's a standard, straight-forward player, what's wrong with my flop play?

Not trying to be belligerent, I just want to make sure we're examining the "always push" assumption and not just leaping to it.

TomHimself · #7 09-20-2005, 10:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It will accomplish everything a min-raise does, only you have more fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus if you mini-raise like you did and he pushes your being priced in and have to call

mayesie · #8 09-21-2005, 12:50 AM

The pre-flop call was fine. Although you're the big stack, MP1 can hurt you if he doubles up. Of course, your decision to call or raise before the flop can be made based on the situation at the table (how they're playing, etc). I see nothing wrong w/ taking a flop w/ this mediocre hand, using your position, and seeing what action comes to you before making a decision.

Yes, the flop mini-raise was lame. It makes it look like :

1) You're on a draw

OR

2) You're not confident enough w/ your holding to put your short-stacked opponent all-in.

In fact, if your opponent has any kind of decent draw (unlikely, based upon his betting), you're begging him to re-pop you after making that weak bet. Putting him all-in on the flop gives you the best chance that he goes away.

Your fold was even worse. At the point MP3 went all-in, the pot was offering great odds.

Please let me know if I'm missing some information on this hand. Your fold on the flop seems a bit weird. :-)

Dave D · #9 09-21-2005, 12:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is from a Party 20+2. I felt like, given this guy's stack, a min raise would be enough to put him to the test. Even though he only min-re-raises, I'm going to be pot committed to call an all in if I call here, right?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (10 handed) converter

UTG+1 (t805)
UTG+2 (t1234)
MP1 (t4165)
MP2 (t2072)
MP3 (t1467)
CO (t2116)
Hero (t8066)
SB (t1070)
BB (t2752)
UTG (t155)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls t150, 1 fold, MP3 calls t150, 1 fold, Hero calls t150, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (t675) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets t325, Hero raises to t650, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP3 raises to t975, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t2300

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you play this hand? 20 bbs isn't crisis mode, but I dunno why you need to donk away a blind here.

A min re raise on party is probably the most consistant tell of a big hand, I think you can probably rest assured that you made the right move. That being said tho, why not just call his min raise and re evaluate, there's a lot in the pot, and I think you can still fold the turn.