Two quick questions I have for Christians

Saddlepoint · #1 09-19-2005, 09:19 AM

1) Christ died only in penance for the sins of those who accept Him, correct? Meaning, those who choose consciously not to accept the Bible are still accountable for their own sins in the eyes of God?

2) Why wasn't it within God's power to create humans to be totally free of sin in the first place?

Stu Pidasso · #2 09-19-2005, 09:30 AM

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2) Why wasn't it within God's power to create humans to be totally free of sin in the first place?

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God created Adam and Eve free from sin. He also created rocks free from sin. However God gave Adam and Eve an attribute he did not give rocks and that was free will. Unfortunately Adam and Eve made some bad decisions in excercising thier free will.

Stu

txag007 · #3 09-19-2005, 09:45 AM

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1) Christ died only in penance for the sins of those who accept Him, correct? Meaning, those who choose consciously not to accept the Bible are still accountable for their own sins in the eyes of God?

2) Why wasn't it within God's power to create humans to be totally free of sin in the first place?

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Christ died for the sins of mankind. If you choose to reject Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, then yes, you are still accountable for your sins in the eyes of God.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that creating humans free of the capability of sin was out of God's power, but rather say that He chose to create us with free will. He desires a personal relationship with us. How else would he know that our love is real if it not for our free will?

jakethebake · #4 09-19-2005, 10:15 AM

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Christ died for the sins of mankind. If you choose to reject Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, then yes, you are still accountable for your sins in the eyes of God.

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So if you're a sinner that has never heard of Jesus and therefore haven't rejected him, you're ok?

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How else would he know that our love is real if it not for our free will?

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Uuuh...Because he's God and supposedly omniscient?

Saddlepoint · #5 09-19-2005, 10:36 AM

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1) Christ died only in penance for the sins of those who accept Him, correct? Meaning, those who choose consciously not to accept the Bible are still accountable for their own sins in the eyes of God?

2) Why wasn't it within God's power to create humans to be totally free of sin in the first place?

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Christ died for the sins of mankind. If you choose to reject Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, then yes, you are still accountable for your sins in the eyes of God.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that creating humans free of the capability of sin was out of God's power, but rather say that He chose to create us with free will. He desires a personal relationship with us. How else would he know that our love is real if it not for our free will?

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I mean this all out of genuine curiosity, so I apologize if anything I say comes off as facetious - it's not intended.

The first question was somewhat rhetorical, your answer to the second question intrigues me, and I have a follow-up:

2a) If God granted human beings free will, presumably with the knowledge that in so doing He was creating beings that would be "imperfect" by His standards, was He also consciously aware that He was damning many of us to Hell?

I hope it doesn't come off like question 2 was a set-up - in fact I found both of your answers to actually be really unexpected and interesting, as the concept of having been granted free will always seemed like a given.

However, this point alluded to in 2a has bugging me for a while, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't ask question 2 with the hopes of eventually getting to this point. I suspect it may be a sticking point for many non-believers.

Basically:

We are naturally sinful, and as such, we would be damned if not for God's loving decision to send His son, etc, and for this we should be grateful because it gives us a way out of Hell, correct? But isn't God responsible for our sinful nature in the first place? Yes, we ate the fruit and everything, but He was the one who gave us free will, correct? Without which none of this would have been possible? Just understand that, in the agnostic or atheistic mind, this seems as though God is allowing us to be saved from a fate of His own design. So it would be kind of a screw job.

PS -- I'm not trying to be condescending or anything by capitalizing the pronouns of God and Christ, I'm sorry if I'm doing it incorrectly or if it's not appropriate. I'm just trying to address this respectfully because it's become apparent to me that this is very important to a lot of people.

txag007 · #6 09-19-2005, 12:08 PM

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2a) If God granted human beings free will, presumably with the knowledge that in so doing He was creating beings that would be "imperfect" by His standards, was He also consciously aware that He was damning many of us to Hell?

We are naturally sinful, and as such, we would be damned if not for God's loving decision to send His son, etc, and for this we should be grateful because it gives us a way out of Hell, correct? But isn't God responsible for our sinful nature in the first place? Yes, we ate the fruit and everything, but He was the one who gave us free will, correct? Without which none of this would have been possible? Just understand that, in the agnostic or atheistic mind, this seems as though God is allowing us to be saved from a fate of His own design. So it would be kind of a screw job.

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You ask some good questions, and I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers. We do know this: God didn't create evil. He is good all the time and it is our sin that separates us from Him.

Your reasoning ultimately leads to the question: If He knew we were going to be damned to Hell, why create us in the first place? One of the few things the Bible tells us about our creation is that God made man because He was lonely. As I said before, He desires a relationship with us. Other than that, I don't know. There may be some things that we don't fully understand until we get to Heaven.

jakethebake · #7 09-19-2005, 12:56 PM

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We do know this: God didn't create evil. He is good all the time and it is our sin that separates us from Him.

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how do you know this?

txag007 · #8 09-19-2005, 01:54 PM

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We do know this: God didn't create evil. He is good all the time and it is our sin that separates us from Him.
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how do you know this?

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Because evil does not exist as a substantive thing. Just as darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat, evil is the absence of good. God created all things, but our separation from Him is what results in evil.

jakethebake · #9 09-19-2005, 01:57 PM

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We do know this: God didn't create evil. He is good all the time and it is our sin that separates us from Him.
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how do you know this?

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Because evil does not exist as a substantive thing. Just as darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat, evil is the absence of good. God created all things, but our separation from Him is what results in evil.

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this does not answer the question.

txag007 · #10 09-19-2005, 01:58 PM

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So if you're a sinner that has never heard of Jesus and therefore haven't rejected him, you're ok?

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What happens to those who have never heard of Jesus is another great question of which I am not going to pretend to know the answer. Jesus said, "No man shall come to the Father except through me." This is why Christians are spreading the Word of God to unreached people groups.