Some hands from today - Hand 3, went overboard?

aflaba · #1 09-19-2005, 05:53 PM

This is against IFoundsMyName, my most frequent opponent. I find him on every second table I join. Very strange. I must start taking reads on him.

Party Poker 10.00/20.00 Hold'em (5 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 folds, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB folds, CO calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB.

When he bets on the turn I get surprised. I can't imagine he has two pair or a straigh. I have a tough time imagening a J either since he could ch/r instead.

I suspect that maybe he is on some bluff or he has QJ and feels he can fold if I raise. I figure I might as well pop him on the river.

I didn't even register the back door flush draw. I couldn't put him on anything that beat me so I capped. I couldn't put him on anything I did beat either though, so the cap was no good I think, even if there wouldn't have been a flush out there. Do you agree?

Interesting how hand reading can take you a long way. On the turn his only _likly_ hand is a flush draw, right?

How would you have played this hand?

kidcolin · #2 09-19-2005, 06:25 PM

I'm not a 10/20 player, but is donking a turned flush draw very common? Don't most the LAGs usually c/r this? By the tone of the post, it sounds like you got flushd, but I'd have a hard time putting him on it myself.

In determining whether to cap or not, I think you're underestimating the straight possibility. In a 5 handed game, he's probably opening with any ace from the cutoff, as well as 44. So A4 and 44 are pretty solid possibilities, both of which I think could easily donk this turn. The only hand I see you beating is a worse aces up, but it's less likely than a flush or straight, I think. Just call his 3-bet.

Catt · #3 09-19-2005, 06:54 PM

I've played against him a fair bit, but I don't have access to my notes and can't recall specifically his post-flop tendencies. But if memory serves, he's probably not going nuts on the river with just two-pair (though it's possible). I'd call the river threebet instead of capping, and would expect to be shown a small set or a straight with 44 or A4 more often than a hand I beat (for whatever reason, I'm not quite so worried about the BD flush though he could have a few flush hands like KQ, KT, QT, etc., all of which he could peel and donk with.

rory · #4 09-19-2005, 07:03 PM

the river cap seems a little excessive.

aflaba · #5 09-19-2005, 07:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're underestimating the straight possibility. In a 5 handed game, he's probably opening with any ace from the cutoff, as well as 44. So A4 and 44 are pretty solid possibilities, both of which I think could easily donk this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right! About A4 at least. I don't see 44 getting donk bet on the turn though. I can't find good motives for that? I did underestimate the straight possibility. I estimated it to like 0%, when it should have been much higher. I didn't consider A4 in his preflop range, but as far as I know it's there. Interesting. I have work to do.

Thanks for the help!

joker122 · #6 09-19-2005, 07:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is against IFoundsMyName, my most frequent opponent. I find him on every second table I join. Very strange. I must start taking reads on him.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i see this guy everywhere - right now my read is slightly LAG. anyone else?

i raise the turn.

kidcolin · #7 09-19-2005, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you're underestimating the straight possibility. In a 5 handed game, he's probably opening with any ace from the cutoff, as well as 44. So A4 and 44 are pretty solid possibilities, both of which I think could easily donk this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you're right. About A4. (I don't see 44 getting donk bet. What would be the motive?) I did underestimate the straight possibility. I estimated it to like 0%, when it should have been much higher. Interesting. I have work to do. I didn't consider A4 in his preflop range, but to the best of my knowledge it is there.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might be right about 44. He'd probably c/r the flop with that. He might just be trying to put you in an awkward spot on the turn, suspecting you only have overs, but it would be a strange 44 line.

Surfbullet · #8 09-20-2005, 04:34 AM

Hey Aflaba,

edit:
You wanted to know how i'd play the hand...

I raise the turn. His donkbet here is almost always a weaker 1 pair seeking to prevent a free card. Rarely it is a set or straight looking for action, but I think he'd go ahead and c/r the flop hoping you'll 3bet him with an overpair.

However, the hand would have played out differently then.

If he had 3bet me on the turn I'd just call the river. If he called the turn and raised the river I'd 3bet since he just made an obvious worse 2 pair...we can *nearly* rule out all sets and the flopped straight since they would 3bet the turn...the A improved him and it means he's got A2/A3/A5 or 44. There's more worse 2 pairs so I reraise the river.

From my experience IFoundMyName is a laggish TAG, who reads hands decently well. This is important to note as we play the hand.

Preflop -
great. He steal-raises quite wide.

Flop-
your hand is still likely best. good protection bet.

Turn-
Ifoundmyname donks us. Now, from his perspective, you 3bet preflop...you could have many PPs 88+, AK-AJ (maybe AT), maybe KQ. (assuming he knows you are TAG). If you've been 3betting him light this range gets wider. If you haven't gotten out of line I think this is okay.

So, he donks the turn. Your flop bet tells him nothing, so the hand range is the same. On the turn it looks like he's got a pair that he wants to protect - he's worried you'll take a free card with overs, so a c/r is out most of the time with a 1pair hand like QJ or A2/A3/A5 or 44.

Also, he could have A4 or a set and his turn bet is in the hopes you raise your PP.

I think donking a FD is relatively unlikely, unless he figures to fold out your AK...but I think he'd have gone for a c/r if he wants you to fold, he has to know you will call with a pot this big.

Okay, you call the turn. Now he is ignoring QQ-AA, thinks smaller PPs are a possibility, and big unpaired overs are the most likely.

River-
You raise him when the A hits. Now, he's got you squarely on AK/AQ. He figures you'd raise AJ on the turn, and KQ/PP doesn't raise this river. JJ would have raised the turn.

So, he'll 3bet you with any 2-pair or better hand, since your play looks exactly like AK/AQ. The key here is that, while loose, he will never have flopped 2 pair since he doesn't raise 35 or junk like that. The only 2pair hands he can have are A2/A3/A5. We lose to 44, A4, 22, 33, 55, and the unlikely BD flush.

Sooooo...combinations of hands.
Hands we beat:
A2:6
A3:6
A5:6

=18 hands

Hands that beat us:
A4:8
22:3
33:3
44:6
55:3

= 23 hands

So, just call the river 3bet. He'll be 3betting a worse hand often but we are a dog to his range not counting BD flushes.

Surf

Surfbullet · #9 09-20-2005, 04:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]

You might be right about 44. He'd probably c/r the flop with that. He might just be trying to put you in an awkward spot on the turn, suspecting you only have overs, but it would be a strange 44 line.

[/ QUOTE ]

44 fits in just fine. He doesn't have to protect his hand on the flop since it's HU when it gets to him. He also doesn't want Hero taking a free card on the turn with overs. If he gets raised he can lay it down on the river if he misses his OESD.

Surf

cartman · #10 09-20-2005, 04:43 AM

Maybe it is unlikey since you have some knowledge about this guy, but at 5/10 when I get donkbet on the turn my very first thought is "adopted draw" because it is so common. I would absolutely raise the turn. The way you played it is fine against someone who you know would fold to raise, but either bet again or check-call the river because we didn't raise. I don't like the river cap at all because a cutoff open-raiser could certainly have a 4 and as I said before, at least at 5/10 his play is entirely consistent with running clubs.

Cartman