keller and moss had large downturns at the end of their career?

[DavidC]

Edit:
To the person who moved this, it doesn't belong in NVG, as it relates to an article in this month's magazine: Dr. Al's article. I'm basically asking him for bibliographical notes here. If it must be moved, perhaps it can be moved to the TV Tourney forum, where people know about famous people in poker, rather than the news forum, which is basically the recycle bin of 2+2. Jesus Christ, man.

Anyways, here's my question:

----

I'm curious, and I hope I don't offend any of the "established" poker players who may have known these guys personally, but is there any articles that I can read online that detail Moss living on Binion's charity or Keller playing the 4-8 games?

(Edit: As detailed in Dr. Al's article.)

I'm really curious.

I googled it, and found out that Keller's dead, but other than that, I can't find any of the "gritty" stuff about these guys.

--Dave.

[RedManPlus]

This Cigar Aficionado article from 1996...
Published months before his death...
Is interesting...
But CA does a big, fat puff piece on everyone...
So read with big grain of salt.

Moss At 88

rm+

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi David:

I played a fair amount with Moss during his last years. He was basically a poker room manager from long ago and never really understood how to play in any game. He was also very convinced that all dealers were unlucky for him.

Jack Keller is a very different story as far as I know. I did play a very small amount against him and my opinion is that he was an excellent player no matter what the game or format. The reason he may have been playing small limit during his last years is that I believe he was working as a host in a Beloxi cardroom. So perhaps he was just doing his job.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Red:

In the article Konik wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Johnny Moss is one of the greatest poker players to have ever played the game.



[/ QUOTE ]

I would strongly dispute that.

[ QUOTE ]
He is a frail old man. But something magical happens when Moss parks his little cart next to a poker table. The inattentiveness goes away. The aches and pains diminish. The eyes burn bright. Johnny Moss experiences a curious rebirth every time he plays cards. Whether sheerly through learned responses or acute instincts, the Grand Old Man, nearing 90, remains a winning poker player.



[/ QUOTE ]

Well something magical did happen. The game would immediately fill up. Moss would play nearly every hand (usually to the river) and then demand that the dealer be fired. It wasn't a pretty scene.

By the way, there were three old players who all played $20-$40 hold 'em at Binions around this time and the games were built around them. Unfortunately they all passed away within a few months of each other, and the $20-$40 game at the Horseshoe that went all the time ceased to exist.

Best wishes,
Mason

[David Sklansky]

Before Mason gets into too much hot water, I should jump in and tell everybody that I first played against Moss when he was seventy or so, and he played holdem well and stud OK. He may have also been pretty good at No limit Deuce to Seven. He never caught on to Hi Lo though and certainly deteriated in his later years when Mason came on the scene.

[GrannyMae]

ok, but what about in his prime? was he "GREAT" ?

i watched the legends wpt for the third time last night and it got me thinking about mason's post.


forget about the fact that doyle is still playing well, i want to know if doyle vs. JM was an even match.. ever?


p.s. i was wide awake after the legend's rerun and popped in my 'poker by the book' episode. i was slumbering nicely in 15 mins.



(kidding!! i love that episode)

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious, and I hope I don't offend any of the "established" poker players who may have known these guys personally, but is there any articles that I can read online that detail Moss living on Binion's charity or Keller playing the 4-8 games?


[/ QUOTE ]

The best thing on Moss is in Fast Company by Jon Bradshaw. It's not available online, but has been recently re-issued in paperback. It pictures Moss as a sad character in many ways, but I don't believe it shows him living on Binion's charity.

As to whether Moss could play, here's a dirty little secret about no-limit: if you know where your opponent is, you don't have to "understand" anything about poker.

[Timer]

[ QUOTE ]


By the way, there were three old players who all played $20-$40 hold 'em at Binions around this time and the games were built around them. Unfortunately they all passed away within a few months of each other, and the $20-$40 game at the Horseshoe that went all the time ceased to exist.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really unfortunate that three old players past their prime had to die so your precious 20-40 game would dry up.

[MagicMan08]

Very interesting post.

[Mason Malmuth]

I actually didn't play that game that often. Most of my $20-$40 time was spent at The Mirage.

On the other hand, that's the way poker is. If the games aren't good, don't expect them to last.

MM