I have trouble OOP against LAGs

TheHammer24 · #1 09-14-2005, 01:14 AM

Villian is 40/9/2 His pfr was autoraise if that changes your opinion.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

This one really bothers me. I generally have trouble against these kind of opponents where their raise could mean anything. I am looking on advice, not just in this particular hand, but this situation in general. Fair hand OOP against a loose and aggressive opponent. Would c/c the whole way be better? In the hand as played was folding the river good or bad?

SackUp · #2 09-14-2005, 01:24 AM

I play the flop the same way, but I am probably folding the turn.

His pfr is very high, but is he 3betting as much as he is just raising?

Also, given that he didn't bat an eye at your c/r on the flop I don't know that there is much merit in continuing past the turn unless you have a read on him that he will way overplay hands postflop. His aggression is high but not out of control.

The pot is fairly large but your hand is not that strong and he has not slowed up from the start. I don't think you are winning enough here to make calling down profitable unless you really have a rock solid read on this guy as a maniac.

On another point. Say you c/r the flop and he just calls and then he raises your bet on the turn, I'm folding this on the turn as well.

Sarge85 · #3 09-14-2005, 01:59 AM

If he has manical tendancies - i think your river fold sucks.

You can't play a maniac hard on the flop or PF, and then back down when you have a hand worth a showdown.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

TheHammer24 · #4 09-14-2005, 11:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If he has manical tendancies - i think your river fold sucks.

You can't play a maniac hard on the flop or PF, and then back down when you have a hand worth a showdown.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think playing the hand as I did, I have to call the river.

This kind of hand plauges me. First, is the flop c/r standard against this aggressive of a player? Do I call down unless the board goes to hell if he three bets it?

Secondly, let's assume that villian will 3-bet any c/r and raise any donk bet. Playing the same board, what becomes the correct line?

#5 09-14-2005, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he has manical tendancies - i think your river fold sucks.

You can't play a maniac hard on the flop or PF, and then back down when you have a hand worth a showdown.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think playing the hand as I did, I have to call the river.

This kind of hand plauges me. First, is the flop c/r standard against this aggressive of a player? Do I call down unless the board goes to hell if he three bets it?

Secondly, let's assume that villian will 3-bet any c/r and raise any donk bet. Playing the same board, what becomes the correct line?

[/ QUOTE ]
Headsup against a superaggressive opponent your best strategy is to just check and call the whole way. By checking and calling you induce him to bluff or bet weaker hands then you, and you can never get outplayed if you just check and call. And when you do have the best hand, you never miss out on a bet anyways since the villain will always bet your hand for you. Against an aggressive opponent like this, checking and calling takes away all his powers.

TheHammer24 · #6 09-14-2005, 11:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he has manical tendancies - i think your river fold sucks.

You can't play a maniac hard on the flop or PF, and then back down when you have a hand worth a showdown.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think playing the hand as I did, I have to call the river.

This kind of hand plauges me. First, is the flop c/r standard against this aggressive of a player? Do I call down unless the board goes to hell if he three bets it?

Secondly, let's assume that villian will 3-bet any c/r and raise any donk bet. Playing the same board, what becomes the correct line?

[/ QUOTE ]
Headsup against a superaggressive opponent your best strategy is to just check and call the whole way. By checking and calling you induce him to bluff or bet weaker hands then you, and you can never get outplayed if you just check and call. And when you do have the best hand, you never miss out on a bet anyways since the villain will always bet your hand for you. Against an aggressive opponent like this, checking and calling takes away all his powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand this logic, but I'm apprehensive to agree with it in this case, because it is not WA/WB, we both a fair about of out if the other is ahead. Does it still apply?

Fat Nicky · #7 09-14-2005, 11:32 AM

Yes, villains stats indicate that he is loose and aggressive, but he is far from a maniac. I think you have to take a good amount of stock in his pre-flop 3-bet as his PFR is only 9 (far from over aggressive).

The flop is kind of tricky as we have middle pair and a gutshot. We can pretty much expect a raise everytime if we bet out, so I think I dig a flop c/r. After getting 3-bet, I'm convinced we are behind at the moment.

We have between 4 and 9 outs on the turn, so we have the odds to see the river.

I'd fold the river, as there is hardly anything in the villains range of hands that we beat.

#8 09-14-2005, 11:34 AM

you're not "taking away all his poweres". if you check and call the whole way you are giving him the option to take free cards when he pleases. but this isn't so bad because he won't take them - he'll bet way too much even when he's behind.

Aces McGee · #9 09-14-2005, 11:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
am looking on advice, not just in this particular hand, but this situation in general. Fair hand OOP against a loose and aggressive opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against aggressive opponents (but who aren't total maniacs) when I have a hand that I want to showdown with but isn't top pair or better, I think simply calling all streets is best. You can really punish them later, when you do wake up with a strong hand. But in the meantime, use their aggression against them and let them bet your hand for you.

It's important, though, to recognize when it you need to up the aggression; that is, when you're not heads up. When it's just you and him, it's okay to let the aggressive player draw to his 3- or 6-outer, even if you lose the pot once in a while, because you will win extra bets much more often (by having them keep betting when they would have folded). However, when the pot is 3-way or more, your opponents collectively have more outs against you, and it becomes important to get it heads up with the aggressive player. Depending on position, you may be able to get the third player to fold a better hand than yours.

[ QUOTE ]
In the hand as played was folding the river good or bad?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think the fold is horrible -- those who are saying it is are reading too much into the stats for this guy, in my opinion. You're behind to a lot of hands. However, you don't provide us with a postflop read, and combined with the chance that you're best some of the time, it may be worth calling just to get a better read on him postflop. I wouldn't recommend this type of call with ace-high or anything, but middle pair on the flop is enough hand to call here.

[EDIT: I missed that he three bet preflop. I think a fold is fine on this board. And I think I'd check/call the flop and consider check/folding the turn]

-McGee

jat850 · #10 09-14-2005, 12:49 PM

By definition you have a problem. No one suggested the obvious, seat change or table change to get better position.

But once you are in this situation, IF you are going to stay at that table, this is where I find that online play and stats fall short of live reads. Some other people asked some good questions, particularly about villian's prior behavior in 3 bet situations compared to his regular bet or raise pattern. Poker tracker stats don't help you there, you have to be observant. In general, there is less BS on a 3 bet or cap, but does that apply to THIS villian at THIS time?

I feel that I do not have the information to answer your question about this being a good fold or not without having you look back on your experience with this player in this session. If you lack observations about the villian, and your hand is not that strong, once you are re-raised, choosing a time to fold is OK. UNLESS you are planning to stay at that table and seat a while. Then, is it worthwhile to pay the last bet to: a) put him on a range of hands, b) tell him through your call that aggression alone won't win hands. (Be careful, your position to do that still sucks.)

I also look to the theme of the table. Are there other players cooperating to bring this moderate maniac under control? Many times I have seen a table "tag team" maniacs or near maniacs successfully. Is this hand part of such an effort? If each other player takes 1 shot at the moderate maniac, the pressure on you is 1 hand, the pressure on him is 9 hands. Sooner or later, playing bad hands under these conditions will cost him and it takes some luck get your share of his money if everyone else is tacitly committed to not let him run the table.

These are ways to gain control and the ability to read a moderate maniac's cards over a session.

I hope these thoughts help.