O/8 Help

CJHunt · #1 09-09-2005, 07:31 AM

I took a lotta flak for still being in the hand at the river. Where do you fold this? If you say preflop thats my bad. Turn I would have folded with 2 in the face but I figured if i put in for 1 I wasn't gunna fold to one more. Thanks in advance!

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (14.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button raises, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

River: (22.70 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 26.70 BB

SheridanCat · #2 09-09-2005, 08:34 AM

Remember in Omaha/8 you want a starting hand that is well coordinated. Your hand has a lot of low cards, and the A2 is good, but the ace isn't suited, which means you're really only playing for half the pot barring a low straight coming. You make money in O/8 by scooping, so ABS! Always Be Scooping.

So, yes I think this hand should not be played. But, since you played it, let's continue.

The flop is pretty bad. Your ace is counterfeited and your four flush is far from a draw to the nuts. Fold if bet to.

The turn doesn't help much. Your low draw is there, but it's pretty crummy. Even worse, the betting has you stuck in the middle. I can't imagine your low is going to hold up with all this action. I would lay it down.

God bless the river, eh? You played it fine, and I expect you won 3/4s of the pot.

I think there were a number of times when you should have folded. But, O/8 is a funny game and your crap and turn to gold (and vice versa) in an instant.

Regards,

T

CJHunt · #3 09-09-2005, 08:39 AM

Fold the flop. hmmm

I always think to myself that if I have any half way decent draw on the flop I will put in a SB because it's cheap. bad thinking I suppose? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

As it turns out I scooped it. So good result but i knew I played it badly.

You suggest not leaving the gates without a suited A2-A5 then at least?

SheridanCat · #4 09-09-2005, 08:59 AM

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God bless the river, eh? You played it fine, and I expect you won 3/4s of the pot.

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I shouldn't post first thing in the morning. You very likely scooped it, but maybe got half. No way did you win 3/4.

Regards,

T

SheridanCat · #5 09-09-2005, 10:34 AM

There are many better Omaha/8 players than me, and they may disagree with my take on this hand. I do tend to play very tight O/8, so please get other opinions on this. I encourage you to post this hand in the Omaha/8 forum as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop. hmmm

I always think to myself that if I have any half way decent draw on the flop I will put in a SB because it's cheap. bad thinking I suppose? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's take a look at the hand on the flop.

1) You have a made pair of aces. Of course, that's pretty terrible in O/8.

2) You have 4 to a flush for high, but it's a very low flush. Flush over flush is pretty common in Omaha/8, that's why you want to be drawing at the nut or second nut flush. Since the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is on board, it's a little less dangerous but not much.

3) You have a gutshot straight draw but that can't really even count much. I think it might even hurt you to make it if you can't lay it down.

4) The ace on board has hurt your low draw badly. You'll need to catch perfect to make a low that can win. On the upside that low gives you a wheel, which could be good for high.

In my mind, #4 is the only scenario where you can win anyting. Having to hit runner-runner is pretty tough, especially when you have seen some aggression. You won't see the river cheaply, I don't think.

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You suggest not leaving the gates without a suited A2-A5 then at least?

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I'm not that tight. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But a suited ace makes a hand much stronger. I would play an unsuited ace, but I have to have it working with other cards. And the hand really should have some high potential to be playable, in my opinion. Having a suited ace gives you that potential. Playing for the low is a losing strategy not only in the long run but in the short term as well.

Your 5 and the 7 just don't bring much to the table. If the 7 was a 4, okay, that's a playable hand. I just think the 7 is a dangler that is not helping. Fortunately, you didn't need it.

Again, get more opinions.

Regards,

T

pzhon · #6 09-09-2005, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Remember in Omaha/8 you want a starting hand that is well coordinated. Your hand has a lot of low cards, and the A2 is good, but the ace isn't suited, which means you're really only playing for half the pot barring a low straight coming. You make money in O/8 by scooping, so ABS! Always Be Scooping.

[/ QUOTE ]
In a loose game, not only is every A2xx playable (perhaps excepting A222), but some people in the O8 forum advocate playing every A3xx. (I don't, but an A3 is much, much weaker than A2.) There is a ton of dead money from people playing weak hands and draws to non-nut hands. See this recent post of GooperMC's stats including a 96% VP$IP with A2xx and 78% VP$IP with A3xx.

This is $0.25-$0.50. It qualifies as very loose. Remember that 3 people called on the river without the wheel or a better high. When 7 people see the flop and 6 see the river, playing for half of the pot can be quite lucrative.

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The flop is pretty bad. Your ace is counterfeited and your four flush is far from a draw to the nuts. Fold if bet to.

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That's a bad flop, but with the gutshot to the second nut straight, baby flush draw, and draw to the 4th nut low, I wouldn't fold for one bet. I think it is likely that the gutshot would make a low for multiple players, and you may be able to trap people for multiple bets with someone who is more likely to have the nut low than the nut straight.

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The turn doesn't help much. Your low draw is there, but it's pretty crummy. Even worse, the betting has you stuck in the middle. I can't imagine your low is going to hold up with all this action. I would lay it down.

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I disagree. You had the 4th nut low draw, but now you have the second nut low and a double-gutshot and a baby flush draw. I've made too many "smart" laydowns of the second nut low in loose games only to see some ridiculous hand take the low pot to fold here in this huge pot.

It might be worth raising to try to knock out higher flush draws that would be discouraged by the third low card. However, the benefits are lower in a game where no one folds, and this may just reopen the betting to someone with the nut low or a set.

SheridanCat · #7 09-09-2005, 12:01 PM

I see your points, and I see that the OP posted this in the O/8 forum and got multiple takes on it as well. There is a reply of "fold preflop" and a reply of "raise preflop". [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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the second nut straight, baby flush draw, and draw to the 4th nut low

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To me, these are all equivalent to garbage hands. This could just be a feature of the games I play, but making any of these hands is pretty dangerous. You'll often be hanging around to the end and get nothing.

But, then again, I'm a very tight player.

Regards,

T

Quicksilvre · #8 09-09-2005, 02:24 PM

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You suggest not leaving the gates without a suited A2-A5 then at least?

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No, but if you don't have a good low draw, then hopefully you have something like KQJT or AAKK rainbow. You don't really have to be that strong, but don't slacken opening hand values too much.

TaoTe · #9 09-09-2005, 09:20 PM

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So, yes I think this hand should not be played. But, since you played it, let's continue.

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Woah! What super tight system are you using to play? With several limpers up front and good position any A2 is a profitable hand. I may go as far and say to raise pre-flop to buy the button. In O/8 middle position is the worst as players are often sandwiched in between the nut high and nut low hands. When players with the nuts either way are on opposite ends of the table and are trapping everyone in the middle it can get bad. An A2 is a good hand. It's better if it's suited. Plus, hero has another wheel card, the 5, which is a backup, a poor one at that. The seven in hero's hand is a bad card. Sixes sevens and eights are generally cards that you want on the board and not in your hand, though connectors like 67 will be good because if someone makes a wheel they're going to give you lots of action especially at the lower limits. I promise.

Folding the flop is a no-brainer unless you have a good reason to continue.

SheridanCat · #10 09-10-2005, 01:00 AM

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Woah! What super tight system are you using to play?

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My system is pretty simple. I don't play a hand that is a dog to scoop. I will play a hand that has only high potential, of course, but not one that has - realistically - only low potential.

Okay, the OP gets lucky and does scoop. But that doesn't happen much.

If you play random A2o against a lot of opponents, you're not even playing for half anymore. You'll be happy to win a quarter.

That's it. I tend to play 5/10 O/8 or higher, so perhaps life is different at different levels. Do I play tight? Yes. But I also like to win.

Regards,

T