Tight(er) is Right? (10-20 6max stat post)

[chio]

This is my first stat post – I’ve been meaning to make this post for a long time.

Hands: 57,286
VPIP: 18.37
VPIP from SB: 22.14
Folded SB to steal: 88.78
Folded BB to steal: 70.33
Folded BB to steal HU: 65.49
Att to steal: 29.63
Won$WSF: 41.51
WTSD: 34.41
Won$ASD: 54.49
PFR: 14.28
Flop Agg: 3.47
Turn Agg: 2.92
River Agg: 2.15
Total Agg: 2.73
Folded to river bet: 40.54
BB/100: 1.40

Some notes about my stats:
(1) Includes every hand I’ve ever played in 10-20 6max (including difficult transition time)
(2) On average I play 3 tables (averaging 263 hands/hr)

I guess the purpose of this post is to present a few theories, but also to try and get some answers. Here is what I believe:
Perhaps my stats are an extreme example, but I think you can be a top player with a VPIP 22 or below. For all of poker, but especially in these aggressive short-handed games, you have to play within your comfort zone. If you follow strict stat guidelines (e.g. playing more hands to increase your VPIP or decrease your Folded BB to steal), you will not be maximizing for yourself.

Also, I definitely know my winrate could be higher:
(1) I sometimes play when tired, frustrated
(2) I am not immune to tilting. Recently I’ve been better, but when I’m losing a lot I sometimes loosen up too much and/or bluff too much
(3) While I feel like I have good reads and play every street well, I know my post-flop play can always use more work
(4) I can play a few more hands profitably (obviously). But even if I play a lot more hands (VPIP of 20 or 21), that’s still tighter than anyone else I’ve seen in this forum

Some other notes:
(1) I’m not just posting my stats after a good streak, in fact, I’m down 35BB over my last 14,000 hands
(2) My largest downstreak has been 160 BB
(3) I have used PT only sparingly up to this point. I have a good idea of the significance of VPIP, PFR, and AF, but that’s about it. I never have it open while I play – I find my own reads/notes more helpful.

I guess I’m asking if I’m an exception to the rule, or if I’m on to something here. Every day I see another post about how VPIP of 22 is too tight, and I think “wow”. It leaves me asking myself:
Am I just that good at postflop play?
Is my table selection particularly good?
Is it that I adjusted perfectly for the insane pace of 10-20?
Have I just gotten lucky?
Am I just making a big deal about mediocre stats?

[wuarhg]

The games may be aggressive but if you're that tight in the BB people can raise with ALOT of hands on the button just to try and steal your big blind, and you'll even be check-folding alot of flops.

You don't steal much, people know you have a strong hand when you come in. Easy to play against you. I am not saying you can't be a good winner in the 10/20 6-max game by playing tight. I'm just saying I have my doubts about playing that tight. I know of a few posters here that are very good and play 23/16.

You definately need to steal more and defend blinds more or people will run over you.

[w_alloy]

[ QUOTE ]
(3) I have used PT only sparingly up to this point. I have a good idea of the significance of VPIP, PFR, and AF, but that’s about it. I never have it open while I play – I find my own reads/notes more helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like this goes along with a lot of deviant stats posts. I dont really agree with it or your tight preflop numbers. I think using PT numbers helps put people on hands which supplements your current reads. I think if you play 3 tables adn are expierienced, it will be the least valuable part of the info you have on people. But its a hell of a lot better than not having it. The temptation will be there ti relax your note taking and non stats reads, which i think is why you dont use it, but i think you can work to overccome this temtaption for the sake of profits. Also, I think you can certainly be a winner with your stats, but you are giving up money by not playing more hands.

When fist started 6 max I went the other way, playing looser than people suggested. I thought a lot about this while it was happening, I was fully aware I was disagreeing with a huge body of players and knoweledge but I felt I needed to follow what I thought and not just go with some formula. I read a ton, studied hand ranges and equity calcs, and realized my play was incorrect.

I understand what you mean when you say you arent comfortable. But I think you are cheating yourself by just accepting and rolling with this, and not getting more comfortable playing marginal hands maybe at a lower limit. It will certainly be better in the long run, and probably in the mid-short run too. I'm not suggesting you go lag-tag, but you should at least try 24/15.5 or something.

With a VPIP of 18.4, you are giving up non-debatable +ev situations, and are losing value on some of your better hands. You might be able to debate it if you were say 22, but I dont think someone with your skills can't succesfully argue that playing at least 4% more hands isnt profitable.

[chio]

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You definately need to steal more and defend blinds more or people will run over you.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree - i posted this to force myself to play more hands (mostly in the blinds). but isn't it obvious you can a huge winner in this game with a VPIP many would consider very tight (<22)?

[TightIsRight]

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Tight(er) is Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

yup

I have a bunch of reactions, but maybe I can say it best like this: When I see players behind me with VPIP of 18 my mouth waters. Add to that a WTSD of 34 and I probably would never leave the table, no matter who else was there. I'd be as happy to play against a player with those numbers as a player with VPIP of about 50.

[Lmn55d]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a bunch of reactions, but maybe I can say it best like this: When I see players behind me with VPIP of 18 my mouth waters. Add to that a WTSD of 34 and I probably would never leave the table, no matter who else was there. I'd be as happy to play against a player with those numbers as a player with VPIP of about 50.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're crazy. This isn't even comparable in terms of profitability.

[helpmeout]

18 is a bit tight I think 20 is fine but 18 is probably giving up too much.

You are avoiding too many marginal +EV situations.

You gotta play back at aggressive TAGs who steal too much. They will freeze up when a guy with your stats 3bets from SB or BB.

You dont need to go crazy by playing stuff like QJo KJo UTG or by defending with cheese but you gotta push a few small edges a bit more.

You could probably get more towards 2bb/100 if you add a few more hands in certain situations and of course continue playing well postflop.

[Stinkybeaver]

This is awesome stats whihc I thouhgt could not be done in 6 max. It pretty much clearifyes what went wrong in my first attempt in SH games. PLAY WITHIN YOUR COMFORT ZONE. But I wasn't I was figuring that since I'm a 19/12 Full ring player I aimed at 26/18 for SH games. This should be good stats but if you can't play em then you'll start bluffing and spewing all over the place.

This has givin' me new confidence in that I might be able to break the SH games by starting out very tight and slowly adding hands as I find more comfort zones. Trying to fall in some gruop of optimal stats will not do it.

Continue to update your stat post plz.

[chio]

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18 is a bit tight I think 20 is fine but 18 is probably giving up too much. You are avoiding too many marginal +EV situations.

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again, i agree. i am going to work on improving this.

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You dont need to go crazy by playing stuff like QJo KJo UTG or by defending with cheese but you gotta push a few small edges a bit more.

[/ QUOTE ]

KJo UTG i raise 100% of the time. when it hits, it gets paid off, and it hits a lot of flops. what are you >22 VPIP guys playing if you aren't playing KJo UTG?