2 more marginal hands - 6max

kapw7 · #1 09-06-2005, 04:43 PM

HUSH is going to be split soon. Until then:

Hand 1
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

The button has OK stats (33/11/1.5) but seems weak and indecisive (correct word?)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Button raises, Hero calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Weak draws+weak overcard(s) make this a call against his autobet

Turn: (3.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets

How's the donkbet?

Hand 2
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

BB is unknown (wish I did some more datamining)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Of course I normally fold here against an unknown. Occasionally I call. You see people often playing flush draws (or total crap) like that. How occasionally? No idea.

River: (6.16 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

I call this 100% of times.

Final Pot: 8.16 BB

MrWookie47 · #2 09-06-2005, 04:50 PM

Preflop cool-call in hand 1 sucks. 3bet or fold in all but the most exceptional circumstances.

The turn in hand 2 is an easy fold against an unknown. If this play of his becomes a pattern, make note, but sometimes you'll have a hand worth showing down.

deception5 · #3 09-06-2005, 04:51 PM

Hand 1: I would rarely call in the SB, I'd either raise or fold (borrowing from Weighing the Odds) because you're giving BB 5:1 odds if you just call. Especially against a weak opponent I'd rather he put me on a better range. Turn bet is good I think.

Hand 2: I also usually fold here to the turn bet. Your raise from MP doesn't look too much like a steal so at some point he has to think you actually have a hand. This could be a weak part of my game however, the players at stars are much less aggressive than party so calling down could be better at party.

car ramrod · #4 09-06-2005, 04:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I call this 100% of times.

[/ QUOTE ]

you call down here everytime vs an unknown after he raises your flop bet and bets the turn and river?

kapw7 · #5 09-06-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop cool-call in hand 1 sucks. 3bet or fold in all but the most exceptional circumstances.

The turn in hand 2 is an easy fold against an unknown. If this play of his becomes a pattern, make note, but sometimes you'll have a hand worth showing down.

[/ QUOTE ]

First: Hopefully I won't get any more abuse for defending my play and mostly for getting a discussion going.

For Hand 1 I failed to post that BB is an extremely tight player.
Anyway it's a marginal call that I tried b/c the stealer is weak or anyaway able to give up his steal attempts and BB is very tight preflop. I have a nice multiway hand so I prefer to risk letting BB in than investing one or more SBs (if I get 3-bet).

kapw7 · #6 09-06-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call this 100% of times.

[/ QUOTE ]

you call down here everytime vs an unknown after he raises your flop bet and bets the turn and river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I think you see someone bluffing 1 out of 8 times

car ramrod · #7 09-06-2005, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Of course I normally fold here against an unknown. Occasionally I call. You see people often playing flush draws (or total crap) like that. How occasionally? No idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait, now I'm confused. I just read this. Your read was villian is an unknown. Then you say above that you normally fold against an unknown, which villian was. Then the river you say you call 100% of the time.

Am I missing something?

kapw7 · #8 09-06-2005, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course I normally fold here against an unknown. Occasionally I call. You see people often playing flush draws (or total crap) like that. How occasionally? No idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait, now I'm confused. I just read this. Your read was villian is an unknown. Then you say above that you normally fold against an unknown, which villian was. Then the river you say you call 100% of the time.

Am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Turn: Strictly I don't have the odds to call. But with no reads I can assume that the average opponent is (semi)bluffing a good percent of times. So I fold most of the times and call a lot less to catch a bluff and not give a weak image. Folding everytime is not a mistake.

River: I get 7:1 to call so I need to be ahead 1 out 8 times which is realistic at leat at shorthanded IMO.

@bsolute_luck · #9 09-06-2005, 05:36 PM

hand #1: i agree with others to 3-bet from SB to defend or fold even if BB is tight and lead that flop.

the turn: i'd rather c/r here than lead out. either way UI overcards shouldn't be calling, but if we get a free card, that is fine too or if he calls, that is fine too (or triple fine [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]).

hand #2: if you're thinking flush draw, i'm busting him on the turn with a raise [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] and taking the free showdown

deception5 · #10 09-06-2005, 05:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For Hand 1 I failed to post that BB is an extremely tight player.
Anyway it's a marginal call that I tried b/c the stealer is weak or anyaway able to give up his steal attempts and BB is very tight preflop. I have a nice multiway hand so I prefer to risk letting BB in than investing one or more SBs (if I get 3-bet).

[/ QUOTE ]

My thought here though is that your call looks very suspicious. When you 3-bet preflop, he will occasionally cap and when he does you know that you are probably way behind and can get away from the hand. When he doesn't, there's a good chance you'll pick up the pot as he'll put you on a smaller range of hands. 1 sb is definitely worth him putting you on something like AK-AJ,KQ-KJ,AA-99 rather than something like 99-22,any 2 suited 9+, etc, particularly where he is a weak player.