Turn isolation raise

WSOP Bound · #1 08-24-2005, 10:29 PM

Reads after ~45 hands:

BB - Weak Tight (10%/0%/.25)
MP1 - Loose Passive (49%/3%/.32)
MP2 - Maniac ( 97%/42%/4.5)

I have seen MP2 play way too many hands way to fast. He raises preflop on many hands with garbage just because it wasn't raised. If it gets checked to him on later streets he will reliably bet it himselft no matter what he holds. Other two haven't done anything noteable.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Not so sure about this raise against a bet from a weak tight player. He is representing at least a J here and quite possibly an overpair. With his weak tendencies I wanted to
see how he reacted to a raise here. My line was to fold if he raised or led the turn. Any thoughts?

Turn: (8.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero ???

My hand is not very strong here, but it beats a lot of things that MP1 will bet (essentially any two). I really didn't plan to bet or raise, but when BB bets I see the oppurtunity to put the rest of the field to two. I figure that BB will fold just about anything but the nuts and MP1 is likely to fold to two as well. Is there any validity to this line?

Guruman · #2 08-24-2005, 10:52 PM

I wouldn't play this hand with a maniac in the pot. High-card hands are far more valuable because you can go nutz immediately when you pair up. A middle suited one-gapper type hand can hit a pair and still be behind enough to lose money. Also, a perpetual raiser can often jack up your drawing odds on the flop.

WSOP Bound · #3 08-24-2005, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't play this hand with a maniac in the pot. High-card hands are far more valuable because you can go nutz immediately when you pair up. A middle suited one-gapper type hand can hit a pair and still be behind enough to lose money. Also, a perpetual raiser can often jack up your drawing odds on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good point. I don't tend to play hands like J9s but for some reason felt okay with it on this table. I think that somehow that on idiot made it seem more profitable to play, but I think that I needed more limpers first to play it for flush/str8 value alone. Thanks for the post!

SlantNGo · #4 08-24-2005, 11:35 PM

The preflop limp is fine after two limpers, especially a loose-passive one, as long as your postflop play is good enough that you're not bleeding money as a result.

Good flop raise - there is a very good chance you have the best hand, and you have a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw as well.

Raise the turn. You have no idea how your hand holds up compared to the maniac, but your increase in equity heads up vs. the maniac is more than enough to justify the extra BB going in.

@bsolute_luck · #5 08-25-2005, 05:53 AM

yes, raise the turn.
1.value,
2. protect vulnerable hand in large pot
3. read on villain
4. and he may figure you for a flush draw and that 5 didn't help.

toss · #6 08-25-2005, 05:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't play this hand with a maniac in the pot. High-card hands are far more valuable because you can go nutz immediately when you pair up. A middle suited one-gapper type hand can hit a pair and still be behind enough to lose money. Also, a perpetual raiser can often jack up your drawing odds on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise PF.

WSOP Bound · #7 08-25-2005, 08:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't play this hand with a maniac in the pot. High-card hands are far more valuable because you can go nutz immediately when you pair up. A middle suited one-gapper type hand can hit a pair and still be behind enough to lose money. Also, a perpetual raiser can often jack up your drawing odds on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting....

There have been three responses regarding the preflop play. One says to muck it, the next that the PF limp was fine and the latest says raise. Now I'm confused [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I think I understand the justification for folding, basically the maniac is likely to make it much more expensive for me to draw

I chose to limp in this hand, but am not really sure why execpt that the starting hand chart said to [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] I just moved to Pokerstars from UB so I'm not really used to playing loose tables. Previously my stats were (12%/10%/2.9), so trying to expand my starting hand range and it's unfamiliar territory at this time.

I have no idea why I would raise unless it is to blow away the blinds and try to get in this alone with the LPP and Maniac

Is any of this correct?

davelin · #8 08-25-2005, 09:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't play this hand with a maniac in the pot. High-card hands are far more valuable because you can go nutz immediately when you pair up. A middle suited one-gapper type hand can hit a pair and still be behind enough to lose money. Also, a perpetual raiser can often jack up your drawing odds on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting....

There have been three responses regarding the preflop play. One says to muck it, the next that the PF limp was fine and the latest says raise. Now I'm confused [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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That's because this hand can be played differently depending on the table conditions you have. A tight table without enough limpers is probably a fold (although I think limping is close). A passive table with enough limpers is a call. Here your hand seems to have equity against the range your opponents may be limping in with plus your read of the BB as well says this is a very possible raise.

WSOP Bound · #9 08-25-2005, 11:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That's because this hand can be played differently depending on the table conditions you have. A tight table without enough limpers is probably a fold (although I think limping is close). A passive table with enough limpers is a call. Here your hand seems to have equity against the range your opponents may be limping in with plus your read of the BB as well says this is a very possible raise.

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Thanks for the explanation!

benkath1 · #10 08-25-2005, 11:51 AM

Text book hand protection raise.