Guidelines for playing draws on the flop?

[Marlow]

When I first started reading this forum a few months ago, I was suprised that people advocated playing fast with draws on the flop. After reading and thinking about it for a while, I have some vague ideas about what is optimal and what isn't, but I don't feel as though I have a solid handle on it.

Here's what I know for sure:

<ul type="square">[*]A flush or str8 draw is about 2:1 against hitting with two cards to come. With around 11 outs, it's around 1.5:1 against. With 13 outs, it's even money to draw to a hand you know will win against a made hand. [*]I know that it's good to be the aggressor when the odds are there, as to gain fold equity.[/list]
But then there's the stuff I'm unsure of, such as:

<ul type="square">[*]How to vary my play depending on the depth of my opponent's stack (assuming I always cover). [*]How to play against two or more opponents. [*]How much to bet. Is it Ok to overbet the pot in certain situations? [*]Should I ever put in a bet or raise when the board is paired?[*]What do I look out for when I've got the non-nut draw?[/list]
I've got a few specific examples in mind, but I wanted to paint this in broad strokes first.

Thanks for your help,
Marlow

[gomberg]

I'll ramble off some thoughts on this as I'm bored at work right now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

When I first started playing NL, I read super/system. This lead to the inevitable "play draws aggressively" (although this isn't exactly what he says in that chapter). I spewed a ton of chips pushing draws hard no matter what when I first started playing in $100 NL games.

That's when I realized what I was doing and stopped playing draw aggressively at all. Against these opponents, I'd raise only if I really thought they could fold, or else I would just check / call until I hit and pound the pot. This was much more profitable because of implied odds being there vs. crappy opponents.

Then I moved up and realized I can be aggro w/ draws again. So I incorporated my flop overbet strategy with some draws and with sets. This worked out well until recently I realized I was again too aggro w/ draws for the game. Now I'm at a nice mix where the opponent I'm playing against and my current image are the most important factors in how I play a draw (also if I'm in / out of position).

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I know for sure:

* A flush or str8 draw is about 2:1 against hitting with two cards to come. With around 11 outs, it's around 1.5:1 against. With 13 outs, it's even money to draw to a hand you know will win against a made hand.
* I know that it's good to be the aggressor when the odds are there, as to gain fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but also know your pot equity vs. different type of hands (ie, odds vs. a set given those outs, etc.).

[ QUOTE ]
How to vary my play depending on the depth of my opponent's stack (assuming I always cover).

[/ QUOTE ]

Quick example... if you are OOP vs. a short stack (about 1.5 pot size left) w/ a strong draw, what's the best play? You're probably not a favorite if he calls, but you're going to have to because of the pot odds being offered. Because of this, you should lead out as he's not pot committed and hope he folds. A check-raise is stupid in this spot as he'll be committed once he bets.

Now lets say he's deeper. Now a CR may be correct if you have decent folding equity.

Now lets say he's plenty deep. Now a CR is again a pretty horrible play as if he calls or pushes, you're screwed. So a lead out / push line may be better or a check call / check fold might be ok. These lines will mainly be opponent dependent as your image / his image / your FE are all very important factors. Also, if he'll pay off later is a large piece of the puzzle as well, as then you can wait for really good edge and pound once you hit (like people do at lower levels).

[ QUOTE ]
How to play against two or more opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are tricky situations where your true creativity can pay off well (and good reads). Most of the time, you're going to have to figure out if you can push a better draw out of the hand with dead money in the pot (making it worth it for you to chase). If all of you end up getting money in and you have a non-nut draw, that's a really bad spot. If you can get the other nut draw to fold with a raise, then that's really good. Sometimes you'll get both others to fold. Sometimes you'll have to fold. These spots you can navigate better with experience.

ok - back to work for me.... i'm sure other posters will have much more to say if they feel like it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Marlow]

Thanks, Gomberg. This is an incredibly useful response to a pretty wide-open OP.

I think that the origins of my problem can be found in what you say about moving up in limits. Playing these draws aggressively at the lower limits makes a lot less sense because it’s generally better to bet when you have it and don’t when you don’t.

&lt;embarrassment&gt; Also, I admit, I have only recently learned the odds. &lt;/embarrassment&gt;

As to your point about pot equity versus a set, I just ran the numbers, and it looks like you are always a dog with the draw (even with a str8flush draw). Good to keep in mind…
two dimes

Also, I like how you are differentiating between stack sizes here. All of this makes sense to me, but I’m going to have to look it all over a few times to make sure I’m committing the underlying logic to memory.

Thanks again!
Marlow

[JooWish622]

[*]How to vary my play depending on the depth of my opponent's stack (assuming I always cover).
If OOP and your oppenant has only 1 pot sized bet left, consider betting him all in on the flop. IF he has 2-3 potsized bets left, you COULD take the lead with a 1-2 pot bet, or you could check-raise an aggressive player. If he has 80-100+ BB in front, you have a few options which probably should be weighbed by these factors (there are likely more but I am learning just like you). If your opp is tricky/aggressive, you may want to just lean towards check/call or a more passive line OOP, this is because of you decide to check-raise the flop, he may play with you with very little and may force you the bet the turn when you dont get there. If you check, he just might take the pot away. Instead of check-raising in this spot, leading may be better as it disguises your hand better than check/call and even if you do get raised, you still have odds to call and the pot is bigger, although you may not be able to call a turn bet. You can stop and go, which is a line that is good to take when you have odds to draw on the flop (or even less than odds to take ie.gutshots), feel like your opp may just be continuation betting, and dont want to check-raise for various reasons (tricky player, player in between you and the better). You can then bet the turn which will most likely result in a call or a fold if he hasnt hit his overcards yet. The pot also stays smaller so you may be able to call a turn raise if you have to and bet the river comfortably if you feel he's weak. Think about this line[*]How to play against two or more opponents. [*]How much to bet. Is it Ok to overbet the pot in certain situations?
?? I guess if he has 1.5 pot bets left or if you check-raise all in on the flop if he has a couple pot sized bets left. (100-120 left and the pot is 30, he bets 15, you COULD, checkraise all in here)[*]Should I ever put in a bet or raise when the board is paired?
Hmm...checkraising with a flushdraw in a heads up pot with a medium/high board pair is a sweet move. You get called though, it gets a little player depenedent/awkward now that you're OOP. [*]What do I look out for when I've got the non-nut draw?\
Just remember that if he raises you on the river when the flush draw gets there, you've been leading the whole way and the board looks scary (so he wouldnt raise with a bad two pair and would raise with a set earlier), don't be too afriad to fold if gets really expensive compared to the pot. Even more so if its multiway and someone has been overcalling behind you the whole time. This is probably a reason why you would prefer to play 56s in a 4-5 handed pot, not an 8 handed pot.

[JooWish622]

On the topic of overplaying draws, really try to de-value a nut-flush draw with overcards on a connecting flop, in a 4 handed pot, you might be better off check-calling than CR or 3-betting as you often ignore the fact that your pair outs are no good. No need to reraise a bet/raise in front of you with this hand, just dump it/call if its worth it.

check this post: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...v=#Post3111904

So, fold if you know someone has the high board pair, but consider raising if you are reasonably sure your opp doesnt have it and knows to fold to a CR. The reason is that A, yo may be drawing dead, B, he'll see you making your hand, C you wont really know when you're drawing dead and therefore cant really raise comfortably for value at any point. the FE+ you making your hand is a really nice combo against someone without the high trips.