NL vs Limit w/ hand example

[phillydilly]

In studying SS Limit holdem, a tactic advocated by sklansky is raising a bet with middle or bottom pair along with an over and a backdoor flush draw. Is this tactic applicable to NL or chip spewing?

Please comment if the hand had been heads up also

hand example:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

CO ($94.16)
Hero ($53.10)
SB ($22.39)
BB ($22.60)
UTG ($26.12)
MP ($20.79)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $0.25</font>, UTG folds, CO calls $0.25, Hero

[Mackerel]

The biggest difference between limit and no-limit here, is that I wouldn't even need a pair to raise that weak lead and call in position here. It's unlikely that anyone has much, and making it $2 straight will likely end it. And if one (or both) of them does call, they will likely check to you on the turn and you can either fire again or check for a free river. Of course, if someone plays back, you just give up barring a solid read that they might try a resteal. However, having said that, NL defies easy ABC play formulas (with all due respect to Ed Miller), since so much depends on your opponents and their tendencies. For instance, if the BB here loves to trap &amp; cr, then you would be much more inclined to just call along and see the turn for cheap.

In limit, you are far too likely to get called to make a play like that (with nothing) profitable against 2 opponents, especially at small stakes.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[in no-limit] ... so much depends on your opponents and their tendencies. ... In limit, you are far too likely to get called to make a play like that (with nothing) profitable against 2 opponents, especially at small stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a (common) fallacy that the opponent's tendancies are either unimportant or less important in limit than they are in no-limit. They are very important in both structures. Show me a limit player who does not adjust thier play to account for thier opponents, and I will show you a losing player. This is true at every limit from micros up.

If I took your comments out of context, or misinterpreted them, I'm sorry for that.

This is an insta-call. You're getting 7 to 1 on your money. There is no hand out there that is an 87.5% favorite to win over you after this flop. If you don't turn a 2, K, or maybe a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], be done with the hand.

Heads-up. I raise pre-flop with my K-high. and pot it on the flop.

[Mackerel]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a (common) fallacy that the opponent's tendancies are either unimportant or less important in limit than they are in no-limit. They are very important in both structures.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Grunch, you are correct, I didn't word that very well. My meaning was simply that in this instance, in almost any small stakes limit game I've ever played in, you are nearly 100% to get called at least once there. This is not the case in NL, so your opponents tendencies are much more important in NL for THIS specific case (I'm speaking only about the decision to raise on the flop here). I had no intention to imply that it is unimportant in limit in general, because, as you point out, that is very much not true.

[midget23]

[ QUOTE ]
This is an insta-call. You're getting 7 to 1 on your money. There is no hand out there that is an 87.5% favorite to win over you after this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

other than 55 22 99 K5 and K9.

Good point. I just ran the numbers. Only 22, 99, and 55 put you as a big enough dog not to call based on straight pot odds. Given the way the hand is, though, I still say insta-call. Its less than 1/200th of your stack.

[theben]

that looks like a weak bet on his part. raise and try to take the pot away. you could have 2 blanks for that move. the nice thing is, if you hit a 2 or a K on the turn, you probably will have the best hand and wont have to fire a 2nd barrel bluff

[phillydilly]

of course i called the flop
turn blank, checked around, should i be betting here?
river blank, someone bet, i folded (i think thats how it went)

anyway, i'm trying to find that happy medium of ABC play with moves when appropriate, and i'm bouncing between each side with out landing in the middle, apparently this is a spot i should have taken a pop at...

[vulturesrow]

This is a pretty good spot for a bluff (even though it wasnt technically a bluff). You have a relatively uncoordinated board with no broadway cards. I would have raised the flop for sure and probably lead the turn.