88 in a biggish pot and I think I'm playing like [censored]

brettbrettr · #1 08-18-2005, 12:13 AM

Button is 37/10/1.2 over 200 hands
UTG is 17/13/3 over 350, he'd been very active recently and I thought he might be tilting
BB is 70/10/.9 over 90 hands

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG caps, Hero calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (13.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (16.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB

Nick C · #2 08-18-2005, 12:30 AM

I think this may be a fold on the turn, but one thing I'm learning at 5/10 is that I don't know how to interpret flop 3-bets beyond 3/6.

So I don't know.

In any event, Button could in theory have a big flush draw. He didn't take the free card on the turn, though, which probably isn't a good sign.

Anyway, your play in the hand doesn't seem so bad to me.

toss · #3 08-18-2005, 12:31 AM

I'd muck on the turn. I don't think we can call down profitably.

pokerjunky · #4 08-18-2005, 12:32 AM

These spots are tough for me too, but I think I'd probably fold the turn since you didn't pick up and redraws. Unless button was way more aggressive than his stats indicate I don't think he would be three betting anything less than top pair here.

brettbrettr · #5 08-18-2005, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd muck on the turn. I don't think we can call down profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think this was the spot. Thing is this: the BB's call means absolutlely nothing. I was not planning on overcalling the river, and given that button didn't take the free card I think I could find a fold here.

weevil · #6 08-18-2005, 01:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Button is 37/10/1.2 over 200 hands
UTG is 17/13/3 over 350, he'd been very active recently and I thought he might be tilting
BB is 70/10/.9 over 90 hands

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG caps, Hero calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (13.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (16.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Good raise PF, sucky result. I'm not raising the flop, since you're either ahead or way behind, and you're not getting rid of many players in this big pot. If the action gets heavy after your call, you should probably dump it. Given what happened on the flop, I'd peel for your set and then fold (note it's good that we have the 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]).

So, fold the turn. BB looks like a jack, a set, or a flush draw, and he alone has you killed on average. You'd have to have a pretty lucky parlay of both players on a draw to keep playing, and that's pretty slim.

istewart · #7 08-18-2005, 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not raising the flop, since you're either ahead or way behind,

[/ QUOTE ]

You're definitely not way ahead of way behind with 88 on this board. You're never really way ahead.

weevil · #8 08-18-2005, 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not raising the flop, since you're either ahead or way behind,

[/ QUOTE ]

You're definitely not way ahead of way behind with 88 on this board. You're never really way ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note I didn't modify being ahead as I did being behind. :P
You could have the best hand, but it's not worth charging draws here, but seems better to wait for a relatively innocuous card on the turn and then a brief reavaluation of where you're at.

EDIT, and when I say being ahead, I think there are as many as 14-16 cards that you should fold the turn to if button bets and bb calls.

brettbrettr · #9 08-18-2005, 01:10 AM

Calling this flop would be really, really bad IMO. Its raise or fold, and given that its a prety raggy board on a pfr who could be capping semi-light I wanted to continue. With a more solid UTG its an easy fold after the cap.

weevil · #10 08-18-2005, 01:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Calling this flop would be really, really bad IMO. Its raise or fold, and given that its a prety raggy board on a pfr who could be capping semi-light I wanted to continue. With a more solid UTG its an easy fold after the cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you raise, I think you're effectively tying yourself to the pot in many cases. If you think button has a huge range on the flop, and BB really will just go to at least the river with anything he called PF with, then maybe that's the play. But c'mon (?) You have two aggressors and a calling station on a drawy board in a huge pot. You're not sitting pretty.

EDIT, and folding would be pretty bad I think, since you're getting 17;1 immediate. If you raise your odds are just as good as calling a raise from a later position, and I don't see that it helps you that much in the rest of the hand, unless everyone is fairly tight postflop.