Fish Donk-Bets Me on Turn

#1 08-12-2005, 04:50 PM

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG+1 calls, 5 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

My reads... UTG+1 is XLP (58% VP$IP and 0.3 AG). He likes to play AX, KX, anything suited, and completes SB with any two cards. He will call flop bets with almost any draw - overcard, gutshot, whatever. He also will call down to the river with bottom pair crap kicker. Usually the only time he bets is when he has a strong hand.

I would prefer a more multi-way pot with 77, but I obviously wasn't going to get one, so I raised it to isolate the fish.

With that raggedy board, I figured I'd only be behind some random AX or KX. When he called I still didn't know where I stood. Then he donk-bets the turn when a 4s comes up. I have no idea what he's trying to represent here and he would have check-raised with a stronger hand. On the river I missed a value bet out of confusion - why is he still in the hand? Did he have middle pair, bottom pair, top pair crap kicker, some type of draw?

I find it very difficult to read players will call bets and raises with almost any draw so I miss value bets on the river with my marginal hands.

What range of hands would you put him on here?

Also... what type of hands would you want to isolate a fish with? Like 20 hands later the fish limped in EP and everyone folded to me on the CO. I had QTo but figured it too weak. In retrospect, I think I should have raised to isolate him again. Then again... I would probably NEED to hit the flop or turn to take down the pot since he's a calling station.

gharp · #2 08-12-2005, 05:16 PM

You say:

[ QUOTE ]
Usually the only time he bets is when he has a strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

...then he bets into you on the turn when there are two overcards on board and you raise? I'm thinking that's the time to develop an <ahem> escape plan. That is, fold.

In general, though, I like the idea of raising with 77 to isolate him. I'd probably do the same with QTo in the other hand you describe.

@bsolute_luck · #3 08-12-2005, 05:17 PM

i face the same stuff at UB all the time. his donkbet could be anything really, but the line you took: you have to bet that river. you raised the turn (i'm assuming) because you thought your hand the best. it hasn't changed on the river.

someone with more experience could give better advice but:

1. he paired his 4 and thinks you have UI overcards and will pay you off on the river most likely: like the turn raise.

2. he has a 9 or T and waited for a non-scary turn card. thinks you might check it through, so he donkbets. gets scared when you raise.

so the lines are:
1. call, call
2. fold
3. raise, bet

i think the only way to make a "proper" decision would be to see what he bets with/donkbets. does he wait 'til the turn to bet? does he bet lower than top pair?

IMO, i like fold > call/call > raise/bet. i guess it is just tough for me to believe someone betting a 4 here, but it is possible.

MrWookie47 · #4 08-12-2005, 05:35 PM

I actually don't mind your raise and then river check so much. Raising the turn for a free showdown as the last money you put in the pot is a powerful play in certain situations. You have a hand that might be best, but you're not sure, and this costs the same as calling down. However, a key requirement to make the free showdown play a good one is that your oppoenent is capable of folding a better hand. I don't think this guy is.

#5 08-12-2005, 05:39 PM

The biggest reason I re-raised the turn was because he lead into me with it. Why lead into the turn against someone you know will bet? I'd never seen him do a donk bet before and he didn't seem to be an extremely tricky player. Then again, this was a small sample of only 35 hands so I had to go with whatever little information I had.

I did end up winning the hand at least.

gharp · #6 08-12-2005, 05:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why lead into the turn against someone you know will bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree with the raise against certain people, but against the straightforward, only-bets-with-a-hand (0.3AF!?) type, I think you gotta lay this down.

[ QUOTE ]
small sample of only 35 hands

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, this changes things...

[ QUOTE ]
I did end up winning the hand at least.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sweeeeeeet.

@bsolute_luck · #7 08-12-2005, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest reason I re-raised the turn was because he lead into me with it. Why lead into the turn against someone you know will bet? I'd never seen him do a donk bet before and he didn't seem to be an extremely tricky player. Then again, this was a small sample of only 35 hands so I had to go with whatever little information I had.

I did end up winning the hand at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

what did he show?

gharp · #8 08-12-2005, 05:59 PM

43 (guessing)

TripleH68 · #9 08-12-2005, 06:08 PM

Raising the turn/folding to a 3-bet against an opponent like this seems fine. But I feel like checking the river is okay? Against a player this passive who would be calling down a T or folding to the river bet with a busted draw.

What I find interesting here is do you play it the same every time? This seems like a common situation and making mistakes in hands like this can add up to a big leak.

Am I being weak again? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

shant · #10 08-12-2005, 06:10 PM

You can either call the turn and call the river, or raise the turn for the free showdown.

Heads up I like to call and call. If he was betting a lower pair or a flush draw, we don't want him to stop. I don't think you can bet the river after he calls your turn raise.