Hypothetical hand

[Easystreet]

I've made up this hand because I am trying to see if I have understood a concept from HEPAP. Miller briefly refers to this strategy see note 61 at the bottom of page 156 in Small Stakes Hold 'em. The note refers the reader to page 93 of HEPAP and concerns how to play small pots with 3 or four opponents.

Anyway here is the hand say you are dealt Ah 6h on the button in a ten player game. Two players limp, you call SB folds BB checks.

Four players see the flop 4.5 Small Bets in the pot.

Flop is Ad Tc 3d.

The first two players to speak check, next player bets, what is your action.

Now normally I would raise this flop, but after reading the sections in the two books refered to above, I think the authors are recommending that sometimes calling is better. Anyway if anyone could help out with this concept it would be most helpful.

[soweak.]

Raise to:

1) Eliminate players
2) Charge flush draws and straight draws (raising gives draws 3.75:1 to draw, better for you than 6.5:1)
3) You are in position, and can take a free card if needed
4) You can in some cases have the best hand.

[ReadyEddie]

what soweak said ^

there are some big differences you're not noticing.
HEFAP pg 93: here, the pot was raised PF, so even if you do raise in the flop, flush draws are getting correct odds to call 2 cold. this is not the case in your hand. What you're doing in that example is passing up a small edge for a large one later. (HFEAP has more on this concept)

[ArturiusX]

Easy raise.

[Easystreet]

[ QUOTE ]
what soweak said ^

there are some big differences you're not noticing.
HEFAP pg 93: here, the pot was raised PF

[/ QUOTE ]

On pg 93 it does not say the pot was raised pf. Here is the example from page 93

Suppose you start with As Kc

the flop is Ad Tc 3d

and the player on your right bets into you. If the pot is small (this suggests to me there was probably no raise pf)you may want to call. This is because the bettor may already have you beat and if you raise you won't lose someone who has flopped a four flush. What you will knock out is a hand like middle pair or a gut shot draw. If the pot is big, you would now want to make this raise since anyone holding these hands may now be getting the correct odds to call.

I am having a hard time understanding this concept, if my example in my original post is an easy raise and not one of those occassions when you might consider folding. Can someone provide an example of when calling instead of raising might be correct taking into account what Slansky and Malmuth are talking about on pg 93 of HEPAP.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it doesnt always have to be. This is easily debatable.

To be honest I like a call here. A raise is grand and all, but

1. you could be beat already.
2. Gutshots and midpair would already be calling incorrectly.
3.You will not lose a flush draw
4.Bigger edge on the turn (most likely, if u are not outkicked against a better Ace)
5.if you are ahead, u dont fear overcards, as there are no overcards
6.Small small pot.

There is really no reason to raise here. Make the pot bigger, u raise, because many hands now have odds to call one bet...but not two.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what soweak said ^

there are some big differences you're not noticing.
HEFAP pg 93: here, the pot was raised PF

[/ QUOTE ]

On pg 93 it does not say the pot was raised pf. Here is the example from page 93

Suppose you start with As Kc

the flop is Ad Tc 3d

and the player on your right bets into you. If the pot is small (this suggests to me there was probably no raise pf)you may want to call. This is because the bettor may already have you beat and if you raise you won't lose someone who has flopped a four flush. What you will knock out is a hand like middle pair or a gut shot draw. If the pot is big, you would now want to make this raise since anyone holding these hands may now be getting the correct odds to call.

I am having a hard time understanding this concept, if my example in my original post is an easy raise and not one of those occassions when you might consider folding. Can someone provide an example of when calling instead of raising might be correct taking into account what Slansky and Malmuth are talking about on pg 93 of HEPAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

i propose to forget about the concept because the assumptions made about the play of the opposition are definitely not met in todays games. i wonder if the people folded 4 flushes on the flop in the 80ies (i can hardly imagine it, but if david and mason write it... hmmm) but today nobody will fold a 4 flush if you raise in a situation like that. the standard result would be that someone calls you down with a weak ace or second pair, what is obviously a good thing.

[Easystreet]

[ QUOTE ]

There is really no reason to raise here. Make the pot bigger, u raise, because many hands now have odds to call one bet...but not two.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am glad someone else seems to agree with me, I was begining to think I had completely misunderstood the concept. The size of the pot is all important in this situation, as has allready been pointed out if the pot is big then you need to raise to ensure players with weak (4 outs) draws are making a mistake by calling two bets. If the pot is small however then they are allready making this mistake and so waiting to show your strength on the turn is probably better. There seems to be a tendancy on this board and others for people to raise without consideration of the size of the pot. Miller does not go into the calling the flop strategy much because as he says the games he is refering to almost always have many players seeing the flop and so a raise is now mandatory to reduce the odds for weak drawing opponents. On the internet however, I am often playing in games when there are only 3 or four opponents seeing the flop and hence the Sklansky/Malmuth calling strategy should at least be considered instead of the simple 'Raise the flop' strategy.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

There is really no reason to raise here. Make the pot bigger, u raise, because many hands now have odds to call one bet...but not two.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am glad someone else seems to agree with me, I was begining to think I had completely misunderstood the concept. The size of the pot is all important in this situation, as has allready been pointed out if the pot is big then you need to raise to ensure players with weak (4 outs) draws are making a mistake by calling two bets. If the pot is small however then they are allready making this mistake and so waiting to show your strength on the turn is probably better. There seems to be a tendancy on this board and others for people to raise without consideration of the size of the pot. Miller does not go into the calling the flop strategy much because as he says the games he is refering to almost always have many players seeing the flop and so a raise is now mandatory to reduce the odds for weak drawing opponents. On the internet however, I am often playing in games when there are only 3 or four opponents seeing the flop and hence the Sklansky/Malmuth calling strategy should at least be considered instead of the simple 'Raise the flop' strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

good post. but i want to stress that this hand is very different to the hand in HEFAP. to be honest, i had a look at HEFAP after reading your original post and thought you were refering to old version or gave a wrong page number because the hand was so different.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it doesnt always have to be. This is easily debatable.

To be honest I like a call here. A raise is grand and all, but

1. you could be beat already.
2. Gutshots and midpair would already be calling incorrectly.
3.You will not lose a flush draw
4.Bigger edge on the turn (most likely, if u are not outkicked against a better Ace)
5.if you are ahead, u dont fear overcards, as there are no overcards
6.Small small pot.

There is really no reason to raise here. Make the pot bigger, u raise, because many hands now have odds to call one bet...but not two.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i agree that the raise is debatable. but please cross out reason #3. flush draws won't go away for two bets and if they would fold it would be a reason to raise, not to call.