deep thinkers and winning players only

#1 08-10-2005, 01:46 AM

heres an idea i have been thinking about and started practicing today at 10/20 on party :

a typical TAG (18vpip 10 pfr) open raises from mp or lp and i cold call (going against everything ive been taught) with any suited connector (JTs - 32s and one gappers). the question is : can this be + ev if played properly by a winning player? - i submit that it can

think of cold calling this raise as if you were defending your big blind. normally when you hit any open end or flush draw (pair or sometimes a gutshot with backdoor) you would playback into the preflop rasier in some fashion, probably by check raising the flop. well, its the same idea here accept this time i have position too.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO raises, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

that would be a typical hand where i was successful.

keep in mind that this theory would only be pracicesed against TAG players capable of folding ace king when it misses on the turn.

so i ask you : can cold calling these hands add any usefull amount to your bb/100??

ps. i am nudging people who agree with me to speak up because critics usually are louder than supporters. but by all means - critice are welcome here with THOUGHT OUT REASONING ty

Alex/Mugaaz · #2 08-10-2005, 02:30 AM

I think the idea has some merit, but it mostly just FPS.

imported_stealthcow · #3 08-10-2005, 03:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
normally when you hit any open end or flush draw (pair or sometimes a gutshot with backdoor) you would playback into the preflop rasier in some fashion, probably by check raising the flop. well, its the same idea here accept this time i have position too.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is ridiculous and would be a major leak. 1) you're getting horrible odds here making this call preflop. 2) the range of hands that this tag is opening with is probably half as big as what he steals from the btn when you're bb.

imo this would only work rarely as a move to mix up your game/image against very very tight passive players who can be run over.

lil feller · #4 08-10-2005, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
heres an idea i have been thinking about and started practicing today at 10/20 on party :

a typical TAG (18vpip 10 pfr) open raises from mp or lp and i cold call (going against everything ive been taught) with any suited connector (JTs - 32s and one gappers). the question is : can this be + ev if played properly by a winning player? - i submit that it can

think of cold calling this raise as if you were defending your big blind. normally when you hit any open end or flush draw (pair or sometimes a gutshot with backdoor) you would playback into the preflop rasier in some fashion, probably by check raising the flop. well, its the same idea here accept this time i have position too.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO raises, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

that would be a typical hand where i was successful.

keep in mind that this theory would only be pracicesed against TAG players capable of folding ace king when it misses on the turn.

so i ask you : can cold calling these hands add any usefull amount to your bb/100??

ps. i am nudging people who agree with me to speak up because critics usually are louder than supporters. but by all means - critice are welcome here with THOUGHT OUT REASONING ty

[/ QUOTE ]

this can certainly be effective vs. the right kind of opposition, but a smart TAG is not that kind of opposition. Do this vs. a weak/tight that will easily flop or drop big cards.

Its called a "float", and people in the mid/high forum do it a lot.

lf

winky51 · #5 08-10-2005, 10:14 PM

I have to agree it is not a smart play vs a TAG. If I saw this startedf happening more and more then I would start suspecting a bluffer and change to call down mode if I had anything reasonable. Now if your good and the TAG knows your good he is going to suspect something is fishy since you are cold calling and not reraising the PF raiser. A smart player can turn the tables on you.

A weak tight you can pull that off on, not a TAG.

vexvelour · #6 08-10-2005, 10:36 PM

I think in the right situation this would be a possiblity although I wouldn't make it a habit. Also, I'd make sure they were actually connected (J9?).

kschellenger · #7 08-10-2005, 11:36 PM

As mentioned, it would work better against a weak/tight opponent. However, you're risking a lot to win small pots generally speaking. So I'm not sure if it will be a +EV play. But I would be interested in hearing how it works for you.
Best of luck with it.