Playing against an overpair

Here's a hypothetical for a NL fullhanded game:

Suppose you make a strong raise with JJ, TT, or similar in early position, and a rock or TAG reraises enough that you read him for an overpair like KK or AA, isolating you. Is it correct to call?

I think so, because

1) If the flop comes with an ace, and he's holding KK or QQ, you can bet or check-raise and take the pot. Obviously you fold if he plays back.

2) But more importantly, if the flop comes lower than his pair and you hit your set, if you push all-in, he is almost guaranteed to call you, giving you correct implied odds.

Obviously this depends on the size of your stacks and the amount you bet and he raised pre-flop, but it seems like often this is the correct play.

[RRRRICK]

Calling as a 4 - 1 underdog in the hope of out flopping your opponent, or outplaying your opponent post flop.

This is your strategy?

You're missing the point. If you know you can take him for his entire stack every time you flop your set, you're getting great implied odds. E.g. say you're holding $500 a piece, you make it $25 preflop and he raises to $50. How can you fold for an extra $25 if you know you can take him for $500 with your set?

[RRRRICK]

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You're missing the point. If you know you can take him for his entire stack every time you flop your set, you're getting great implied odds. E.g. say you're holding $500 a piece, you make it $25 preflop and he raises to $50. How can you fold for an extra $25 if you know you can take him for $500 with your set?

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Take some advice
You need to post with more detail and clarity if want people to respond.

Is this a tournament or a cash game?
What are blinds?

[Slappz]

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You're missing the point. If you know you can take him for his entire stack every time you flop your set, you're getting great implied odds. E.g. say you're holding $500 a piece, you make it $25 preflop and he raises to $50. How can you fold for an extra $25 if you know you can take him for $500 with your set?

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If they play like that preflop with AA/KK your gonna take their stack with any decent postflop play regardless.

I think the concept is very general. Anytime you have a solid read for a high overpair, and the amount that you have to call is less than 1/10 of the amount that you can expect to win if you hit your set, you should call.

This also means calling with a small pair preflop in late position after someone raised with an overpair, especially if other players come in ahead of you.

This play clearly makes more sense in a cash game, but it wouldn't necessarily be wrong in a tournament either - not if you can afford it.

Maybe, but many people do play like this (especially with a hand like QQ or KK if they're afraid that too many people will call behind them), and it would be wrong to fold to them.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

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You're missing the point. If you know you can take him for his entire stack every time you flop your set, you're getting great implied odds. E.g. say you're holding $500 a piece, you make it $25 preflop and he raises to $50. How can you fold for an extra $25 if you know you can take him for $500 with your set?

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You are more or less justified with calling with any two cards if he raises you the minimum, especially if he will overplay his overpair. if I had been making a move there with 27off and he min-raises me, I still call.

[Depalma]

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Maybe, but many people do play like this (especially with a hand like QQ or KK if they're afraid that too many people will call behind them), and it would be wrong to fold to them.

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They would mini-raise because they are worried about people calling behind them? That doesn't compute.

No, they are more likely to bump it up to about $200 here. Now run your numbers and you'll see that in a more likely scenario you are not getting the implied odds to call.

Now if you go strictly using the numbers you said, then yes you have implied odds to call. Howver, as one poster said, if they play that badly, you are going to get their entire stack eventually anyway, so there are likely to be better spots.

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Maybe, but many people do play like this (especially with a hand like QQ or KK if they're afraid that too many people will call behind them), and it would be wrong to fold to them.

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They would mini-raise because they are worried about people calling behind them? That doesn't compute.

No, they are more likely to bump it up to about $200 here. Now run your numbers and you'll see that in a more likely scenario you are not getting the implied odds to call.

Now if you go strictly using the numbers you said, then yes you have implied odds to call. Howver, as one poster said, if they play that badly, you are going to get their entire stack eventually anyway, so there are likely to be better spots.

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I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying this.

Why is it so wrong to minraise with a top pair in this situation? Remember, this is a NL game where you already made a strong raise in early position (say four or five times the blind), indicating a premium hand, and your opponent is holding an overpair in middle position.

Now if your opponent minraises to 10x the blind, he is forcing out hands like AQs, KQs (which could flop a four flush) and low and medium pairs (which ruin his reverse implied odds). He might still get one caller with, say, AKs, but he likes this because now he is often playing against two hands that are holding each other's outs.

Moreover, players holding something like AKs, AKo, or a middle pair will be less inclined to call because they know that you (the original bettor) may reraise or push. But calling with a hand like that after a solid player made a strong raise in early position, and a rock came over the top of him, is usually stupid, anyway.

Also, a minraise will build the pot, while also usually putting the opponent on a range of premium hands (remember, we're assuming you have a good read). But if the opponent comes over the top for a ridiculous amount (like 20x the blind), he is giving away his hand, and will scare away hands like JJ, QQ, or AKs (assuming it hit), that would otherwise give great action postflop.

The only time it would be a mistake for your opponent to minraise is when you are holding a lower pair or maybe suited connectors (because you were making a play) and you correctly read an overpair, because now you are getting correct implied odds to call (as described above). But how often does this happen?

If anything, the correct play for the overpair is just to call (the deception is worth much more than the extra raise preflop, I think). But in NL, it can also be correct to minraise, since letting in other players will sometimes devalue the hand.