profiling (long backstory and one hand)

mike l. · #1 07-27-2005, 03:07 PM

warning this post is about live play and live play only.

gabe has accused me before of taking the game too personally and wanting to beat specific players. maybe he's right. but i think it's more involved than that. when i play my A game i watch what's going down and try to figure out who the weak spots are. not just the obvious ones like people playing any 2 cards and going too far with them, but the specific tendencies of each player, looking for leaks that can be exploited. i like playing poker, i may not be very good at it sometimes, but i like being involved in hands and in thinking rather than just making default plays all day long. this tendency in me has been responsible for my biggest victories and sometimes my worst defeats in hold em.

so i profile. like yesterday i was playing 8-16 waiting for the 20 to start. this pretty young (maybe 24-26) blond girl was in a hand when i sat down. she called the turn on a JJ63 board and was bet into when the river ace fell. she said "did you river me?" and the guy turned up three jacks. she showed 99 and said "shiit". she had a bunch of chips in front of her. from this i learned she was not super new to the game, understood terms like "river me". she handled her cards and chips with confidence and was apparently winning. she also has a little case of entitlement disease. i then proceeded to watch her go on a mucking spree preflop and was impressed.

we both were called to the 20 and she continued to fold and fold and fold. she lost a few hands and took some uninteresting beats. then she had JJ and raised preflop and was called by an early limper who is bad. the flop was AQT rainbow. he checkraised her and she mucked face up. she didnt peel. so she knows how to play tight preflop but apparently has no game postflop? another hand shortly after that confirmed my read: after inexplicably failing to correctly bet the turn with her top pair, she called a river raise in a small pot where she was very clearly beat by a loose passive.

so now a few players are walking and it's 5 handed for maybe 15 minutes. she's stuck like $700 and pulls what appears to be her last $200 out of her purse. she's not adjusted at all to the short game, and she seems deflated, still waiting for a big pair to hold up. my image is pretty tight and ive shown no bluffs, played very few hands, vpip 15 or maybe 13 i would guess, not sure if she's noticed though, probably not. she's been busy talking to the people around her.

the blinds have been getting constantly chopped in this short game. i pick up T8o in the cutoff and openraise, folded to her and she calls in the bb. the flop is Ac4c3h. she bets, i raise, she calls. the turn is Ad. she checks, i bet. i intend to fold to a c/r, fold to any bet on the river from her, and bet the river if checked to and it's a non-club.

surfdoc · #2 07-27-2005, 03:31 PM

Is she almost attractive save the bad skin? If so, run her over. I have seen her on the verge of tears many times when she takes a beat or two. She is waaay over her head in the 8/16 let alone the 20. Her preflop play is decent but then it all falls off. Good profile.

As far as this hand, I think she may be too timid to bet into you with a draw though and whe will never fold an Ace. If she calls the turn my guess is you are lighting 1BB on fire if you bet this river. Or maybe she mucks A little face up and shows you a "good laydown".

I personally have not a single ounce of misogyny in me but when she gets ready to cry (literally) at the poker table it makes me want to attack her like a goddamn pirhana.

mike l. · #3 07-27-2005, 03:39 PM

"Is she almost attractive save the bad skin?"

yes that's her! when i first looked at her i thought wow she's cute and then i looked closer and saw her cheeks were all messed up.

yeah i think what seems like a contradiction where she bets the flop and i put her on a club draw vs. her profile is what makes the hand interesting.

highlife · #4 07-27-2005, 04:43 PM

good story and good play in the hand, if you really enjoy poker for the competition aspect of it, this is a fun play. if she folded the turn or river, do you think she would tilt if you showed your hand?

i'm guessing she gets absolutely rolled over in a 20 game playing so bad postflop. she only brought less than one buyin? thats weak.

Philuva · #5 07-27-2005, 04:54 PM

This is not the type of player that you would benefit from by showing a bluff. You want her to keep folding, showing her a bluff would entice her to call more.

rory · #6 07-27-2005, 04:58 PM

i dont like putting labels on my opponents like tight/loose passive/aggressive and so on. i bet you do not either.

the problem is that you can start to treat the player like the label and not as a person who has a reason for playing, a strategy to their play (even if it is a very bad strategy) and theories about the game and quirks and what not. you can't sum those up in tight/loose passive/aggressive. its more important to try to figure out why they are playing and what they think about things that happen at the table, and try to like think like them. this is part of the reason why showing your cards or talking about the game at the table is so bad-- it gives out for free what is really hard to figure out: what you think about the game.

this lady seems like she knows the basic poker stuff. play tight. bet your good hands. fold your hands that are beaten. not far from this simple concepts is betting a flush draw and hoping everyone will fold. i would not be surprised if she had just a flush draw even though she is 'passive'.

fsuplayer · #7 07-28-2005, 12:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is not the type of player that you would benefit from by showing a bluff. You want her to keep folding, showing her a bluff would entice her to call more.

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very good point.

psyduck · #8 07-28-2005, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not the type of player that you would benefit from by showing a bluff. You want her to keep folding, showing her a bluff would entice her to call more.

[/ QUOTE ]

very good point.

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what? isn't this the best type of situation where you'd like her to go to showdown with the second best hand? so showing your hand would make her being afraid to be bluffed later on

surfdoc · #9 07-28-2005, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not the type of player that you would benefit from by showing a bluff. You want her to keep folding, showing her a bluff would entice her to call more.

[/ QUOTE ]

very good point.

[/ QUOTE ]

what? isn't this the best type of situation where you'd like her to go to showdown with the second best hand? so showing your hand would make her being afraid to be bluffed later on

[/ QUOTE ]

Which would you prefer during the course of this session; winning one or two extra bets when she calls you down, or winning one or two extra pots when you have air and she does not?

Sooga · #10 07-28-2005, 02:41 AM

mike one thing i love about your hand posts (other than the sometimes zany play) are your player descriptions. I don't have an example in front of me but when you say something like 'so, loose aggro crazy tilting asian lady with red hair raises UTG...' it just cracks me up. You should work this woman's cheek deformity into your next post about her. Something like, "tight preflop/bad postflop blond girl with bad cheeks but otherwise cute, raises in MP..."