Slowplaying Trips when All Hell Breaks Loose

zeitgeist · #1 07-23-2005, 11:33 AM

MP1 is sLA-A. BB has just joined the table.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (delete "Texas" from HH first)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, BB raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero...?

Bodhi · #2 07-23-2005, 12:00 PM

My guess is that the BB also decided to slowplay, or at least to mimic a slowplay, and MP1 isn't having it. Or maybe MP1 has trips too. It's really difficult to know because you slowplayed, and probably would have got a lot more action had you just fastplayed. Anyway, you gan forgo deception and cap the turn. I really, really hope that you didn't let the BB spike a boat with 88 or something, which he could have folded had you and MP1 gone to war on the flop.

Also, consider raising this to get it heads up between you and the weak limper.

Nick C · #3 07-23-2005, 12:05 PM

Hmm. There's just not that much to be betting on this board.

BB (who appears to have been slowplaying also) seems to have either a queen (let's hope it's a worse one) or a pocket pair (with 22/88 being likely candidates).

Once MP1 3-bets the turn checkraise, I'm putting him on the same range.

The turn checkraise by itself isn't that alarming, since there are more worse queens available than better ones, and BB got a freeplay. But MP1's 3-bet scares me. Your opponents can't both have queens, and MP1 doesn't seem too concerned when BB springs his trap.

I would probably call, hoping that MP1 just has QT and likes his trips and BB just has JJ or something and isn't giving MP1's turn bet credit for being anything more than a follow-up to a flop stab.

To cheer myself up, I'd remind myself that my opponents have no idea I have trips.

I wouldn't be feeling very comfortable, though.

chief444 · #4 07-23-2005, 01:18 PM

What sucks about slowplaying is that you end up with tough decisions because you've underrepresented your hand the entire way.

What's great about fastplaying is that they'll call anyway.

edit...raise preflop.

damaniac · #5 07-23-2005, 01:47 PM

Realistically, letting a player call a bet in a small pot for a chance to spike a 2-outer isn't that bad. Unless you plan on capping every street when he hits, he's making a mistake by calling. As it is, with the relative position to the bettor what it is and the pot being small and our hand being strong, calling on the flop is fine. I'd raise the turn however.

Bodhi · #6 07-23-2005, 06:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you plan on capping every street when he hits, he's making a mistake by calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's only making a mistake by calling with 88 a % of the time. Calling with 88 is correct here because no reason has been given to suspect something like trip Q's.

damaniac · #7 07-23-2005, 06:53 PM

From his perspective, he thinks it is correct. However, when you are slowplaying here, you KNOW you have trips. You know that most hands that are behind you are drawing to 2 outs. Your slowplay permits him to commit a mistake by believing his hand is stronger than it is.

Bodhi · #8 07-23-2005, 07:13 PM

Of course. I'm just reminding you that 88's decision has nothing to do with what you, or the hero, are actually holding.

Jake (The Snake) · #9 07-23-2005, 07:31 PM

Since the pot is small, I don't think slowplaying is terrible, but I still probably raise on the flop. If I had AQ or a set, then I'd be much more inclined to slowplay. Slowplaying trips, especially with a medium kicker, is usually not the best road to take.

zeitgeist · #10 07-25-2005, 10:02 PM

Thanks for the replies everybody - much food for thought.

Nick C wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
But MP1's 3-bet scares me. Your opponents can't both have queens, and MP1 doesn't seem too concerned when BB springs his trap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this worried me also.

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably call...I wouldn't be feeling very comfortable, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did call and I felt most uncomfortable.

Bodhi wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Also, consider raising this to get it heads up between you and the weak limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? QJ? Two or three of you said that and I'm curious as to why. I've never remotely considered QJ to be a raising hand (outside of a steal situation obviously), and won't limp with it before the cutoff at a full table. But I have no well-thought out argument to not raise a limper with it aside from "I don't consider it to be a raising hand".

Or do you guys think the raise here is more of a positional/isolation thing and that the cards don't matter so much? What's the worst hand you would raise on the button after a single limper?

Jake (The Snake) wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Slowplaying trips, especially with a medium kicker, is usually not the best road to take.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally, I agree - if we change the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to a 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or a K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], for instance, I'll tear a rotator cuff hitting the "raise" button. But here with no possible draws, an unraised pot, and only 3 opponents, I think the times when someone hits their 2- or 3-outer will be compensated by the extra bets I hope to get on later streets.

So as I've said, I just called the turn 3-bet. To further complicate things, here was the river action, which did nothing for my comfort level:

River: (12.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls, BB 3-bets, MP1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 24.50 BB