Internet Poker Phenomenon?

[Fat Kid]

First, let me preface this by saying that I have been playing internet poker for almost three years. During that time period, I have shown a profit while playing on many different internet sites, including Pokerstars, Paradise, UB, and PartyPoker. The only site I have not shown a profit on has been TruePoker, but that is a seperate matter. During this time I have also been a winning B&M player.

However, I have noticed a phenomenon, particularly as of late, in internet poker that I have no seen in B&M. The phenomenon being that in internet poker, the number of quality opponents rises while the fish leave, typically for good, after a short time. My reasoning behind this is fourfold, namely:

1) Internet money transfers are simply too damn slow. Neteller takes five days to move $500. Credit cards have low limits and most banks won't allow gaming transactions. This means you simply cannot get loads of money onto a site quickly. I've played with fish who have dumped dime after dime into games as small as a 15/30. That doesn't happen on the internet.

2) Internet conspiracy theories. The theories are all over, from sites being rigged to the government taking notes. Once a fish loses a couple dimes, all the theories start sounding true.

3) A general fear of the internet from fish. I've found the biggest fish to be older players with lots of money. These players tend not to trust Sklansky, let alone something so "newfangled" as the internet, invented only last week by Al Gore. Add to that the quasi-legal status of internet gambling, and people shy away.

4) The low limits of internet gambling. Most big fish aren't small time players on a budget. They don't really care about an extra dollar in rake, but they want to play in a big game. While there are a few sites with larger games, they don't happen that often and again, the money transfer issue comes in.

Those are just some of my personal crackpot theories. Of course, they could all be wrong, the internet could be the softest field ever, and the $3 rake could make the difference between a profit and a loss. But I doubt it.

Thanks for listening.

[MS Sunshine]

From my past posts you can tell I completely agree with you.

MS Sunshine

[lorinda]

Internet money transfers are simply too damn slow.

I think difficult rather than slow is certainly making a difference of sorts.

Internet conspiracy theories

The trouble with this is that there are losing players set on making sure that other fish don't lose their money.

The theories will always be there as long as there are fish.
When the theories stop, then the winners are playing amongst themselves.

MS Sunshine recently made a great point about the fact that the number of whining ex-winners has gone up.
This is the marginal players starting to lose as the games get harder.

A general fear of the internet from fish. I've found the biggest fish to be older players with lots of money

Not sure.. A lot of fish seem to be the young kids who think they know it all.

The low limits of internet gambling

I think the limits are high enough, but certainly people are frightened to put enough money online to cover a higher limit game.

Lori

[lorinda]

MS Sunshine recently made a great point about the fact that the number of whining ex-winners has gone up

Maybe I shouldn't play poker tonight.

First I have problems with extortion, then I lose 35BB in 30 mins, and now MS Sunshine beats me to my comment about him as I am typing it.

It's too much of a coincidence, it must all be rigged.

Lori

[Stu Pidasso]

Whenever something happens that makes it difficult to fund the accounts(ie credit cards pulling out, paypal pulling out, etc), It gets a little tougher to swim in the pond. Eventually balance in nature is restored until the next meteor strikes the internet poker world. Another asteroid is on the way and its going to be a doozie. Many will parish. The bright side is, its the last asteriod we will have to worry about for a long time.

The way I look at it is , as long as there is internet poker, there will always be winners, whiners, and losers. I have been all three. I like being a winner the best. Its hard to be a winner, and its only going to get harder. The industry itself is making secret preperations to insure its own survival. Internet poker cannot survive without winners. If its internet poker succeeds in surviving, then so will I.

Stu

[lorinda]

Another asteroid is on the way and its going to be a doozie. Many will parish.

Care to elaborate Stu?

I assume it's some more American freedom thing?

Lori

[Theodore Donald Kiravatsos]

To this I would add:

5) Playing internet poker gives you nowhere to hide.

Suppose you are the live one who keeps the game going down at the B&M. The money goes from your wallet to buy chips (which you hold in your hand in the absence of a mouse), and then whatever you have left when you quit playing goes back in your wallet at the end of the night. Sometimes you bust out, and sometimes you win a whole load. If the wallet is empty to begin with, you don't play.

But, whatever money you do play poker with is also mixed in with other money for other things. Billy's allowance comes out of the wallet, and then you pay Arthur back the $50 you borrowed back in 12th grade. So when the wallet is empty, it isn't necessarily all because you lost at poker the night before.

Most recreational players do not keep accurate records, and because the money comes in and out of their WALLET, instead of a special bankroll set aside specifically for poker, the recreational player is allowed to concoct illusions that "I break even", or better still, "I'm a winner".

Online fish do not have this luxury of concocting illusions. This person is confronted, on a monthly basis, with credit card statements that show the money going one way (OUT) month after month after fishy month. Eventually, there can only be a few conclusions to be drawn by these losers:

1) They stink
2) It's all rigged. Voila. From fish to kook in 3 short statements.
3) They have better luck in the B&M
4) etc.

In short, credit card statements will provide the fish with some very uncomfortable records of their play in online cardrooms. Netteller accounts force the fish to establish a bankroll, which they then deplete. The online fish must face the unpleasant truth that their counterparts who play exclusively in casinos can hide from indefinitely.

"Your excuses are your own" -- Richard Roma

[Tom D]

“The theories will always be there as long as there are fish. When the theories stop, then the winners are playing amongst themselves.”

I have to take issue here. You’re taken it as given that the “theories” come from fish. I see it as just the opposite. I don’t think any of the theories come from fish. Most of the people expressing concerns about online poker state that they are winning players (non-fish), and that makes sense. If a bad player is being cheated, how’s he going to know? I know, or know of, about a dozen players who play, or have played, online, and they, independently, unanimously agree that online poker is not square. None of them can be classified as a fish.

You also have the preconceived notion—read bias—that people concerned about online poker are dominated by emotion, and unable to think objectively. I think you have that exactly backwards, too.

Tom D

[Fraubump]

So, aside from a smallish percentage of people willing to keep playing as regular losers, fish are generally first-timers.

[Fat Kid]

I should have better explained the fish comment.

Most big fish in B&M games tend to be older, wealthy individuals with either high income jobs, or retirees, from my experience.

The majority of fish online are usually people coming from home games or smaller rooms, where whatever it is they do works for them, or underage kids who somehow got ahold of some money.

I find the B&M kind good for many nights and many return trips. However, the internet kind usually either loses interest and returns to the game they can beat, or gets discovered by mommy/daddy/whoever else they're fleecing.

In my opinion, anyone who thinks online is easier than B&M is either deluded or profoundly lucky. Of course, at this point, I'm slowly making the transition from winning online player to losing online player. Bah!