Let's Try Something New

[VanVeen]

First, the hand:

I raise pot UTG with AdAc. Villain calls from the big blind. We each have >115bb and I have him covered. Flop is:

Ks Td 4d

Villain bets pot. I call.

Turn:

2h

Villain checks. I check.

River:

6s

Villain bets pot. I raise all-in. Villain calls with AhKc. I win.

Assume the following is true: my opponent and I have been playing together on several tables for 6-7hrs tonight. We both know the other is winning significant amounts of money in this game. We do not avoid each other. So, no simple answers, please.

What I want is a set of game conditions (this includes player specific reads and "i know he knows i know..") that would justify taking the line I chose and expecting it to be maximally profitable in the current context. What sort of information could I have gleaned from previous hands that would make this line better than a more conventional one? I often do this. I'll look at a hand that may appear to be misplayed (or at least oddly played) and come up with a set of conditions that could justify the line taken by either player. So, how 'bout it? What could I know about villain? Instead of ascribing plays like this to 'instinct' and 'feel', let's figure out what we're looking for. Good conceptual exercise, no? And of course multiple sets of conditions could justify this line - just make sure they're consistent.

[warlockjd]

The simple answer is that villain must believe that you are capable of trying to push him off his hand with the same hand or worse hands.


Moving backwards logically, how did you set this up? I have played with both you and villain extensively, and do not think your image warrants a call. I wonder....

Seems you must have been hitting sets and/or making semibluffs that forced him to fold his pf rzing hands all night. Felt bullied.


Exploiting table image is an area where my game is definitely lacking, and I could use some insight.....

[xorbie]

He'd have to have seen you raise with missed draws, or at at least bluff them pretty hard. Naturally, this would mean he'd have to have seen you raise AQs at the very least and hopefully down to some SC and even JQo UTG (which is really pretty bad). It would also help if you played big hands harder, so that he could remove KK/TT from your hand range.

[fimbulwinter]

I like it esp because you hold the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. giving him a hand read he can call when you know you're ahead is the only way you can make money past the flop here.

fim

[VanVeen]

I should add that this is six-max.

Let me give you an example of what I'm looking for (it isn't as simple as "he thinks I'm bullying him" - I want to get away from that sort of thinking):

(a portion of my reasoning on the turn - there's a lot more)
I know villain knows that I will call his flop leads with many hands that do not include a King, and; I know villain knows I will call river value bets after turn checks with hands that do not include a king, and; I know the villain will therefore assign me a hand range after a turn check that includes many more made hands that will call but not bet the river than busted draws that will cheaply bluff. VILLAIN WILL BET KJ 30%, KQ 80%, AK 100% ON THE RIVER BECAUSE I HAVE MADE IT CORRECT FOR VILLAIN TO DO SO (villain bets KJ and KQ less than 100% because he is a pussy/capable of making allowances for me changing my calling standards).

All of this is done very quickly, but going back and articulating the reasoning is good practice. This hand was v.interesting, at least for me.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I know villain knows I will call river value bets after turn checks with hands that do not include a king, and; I know the villain will therefore assign me a hand range after a turn check that includes many more made hands that will call but not bet the river than busted draws that will cheaply bluff. VILLAIN WILL BET KJ 30%, KQ 80%, AK 100% ON THE RIVER BECAUSE I HAVE MADE IT CORRECT FOR VILLAIN TO DO SO (villain bets KJ and KQ less than 100% because he is a pussy/capable of making allowances for me changing my calling standards).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but do you raise allin with a hand he beats here ever?

Good question. Simple answer, no.

While I agree table image is very important during a game, you should also be able to classify your opponents into 2 categories, weak and solid. I've seen weak players with every type of image, LAG, TAG, maniac, u name it. And I've seen solid players with all these as well. The simple fact is you were against a weak player that couldnt lay down top pr with nut kicker because he failed to realize that he only had 1 pair, i.e. he married his hand. Any solid player, regardless of table image, would immediately put you on a minimum of an overpair, 2 pair or a set.

[DonButtons]

I usually see this kind of play if villan would check flop, you bet pot on flop, and check behind on turn.

You picked a good time for this move as the river bricked perfectly to get paid off here according to his logic of your hand range.

[9cao]

Would he not pay off 4/5 pot on turn and 4/5 pot on river for a 76 BB total? Considering the river re-raise all-in you must have put him on a strong hand worse than yours and therefore why did you have to get tricky? I guess the 39 BB more is significant but I don't see you getting this every time.

[Cased Heel]

This is a poorly played hand.

Don't confuse luck with skill.

Unless you hate money.