Judging the line between being an ATM and fearing monsters

Barry42 · #1 07-19-2005, 10:07 PM

I am fairly new here and am making my way through SSHE.

I am pretty good w/hand selection although I still cannot get my head around raising for value pre-flop w/out a pair [and before someone else says it- yes perhaps I just need to grow my own pair [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ]

The thing that is getting me most right now is swinging from not fearing monsters under the bed (and winding up being a calling station) and being far too tight.

Right now, I am being far too tight, but am unsure how to judge the line.

The following hand is an example.
Reads:
TAG has been a solid and very tight player through 37 hands. He has a VPIP of 21%, went to showdown 27% of the time and showed the best hand 2/3 of the time once there.
ATM has been a calling station through the turn often and is of no concern.
I believe my table image is very tight. I have played few hands and folded after the flop often mainly since I had not been hitting it.

Sorry about the hand history picture- I had to add a lot by hand since I could not get the betting to show up.

Party Poker (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds
Hero raises
ATM calls
TAG calls

What could TAG have? KK - TT, AK - KQ, AKs - QTs perhaps?

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
TAG checks.
Hero bets
ATM calls
TAG raises (?!?) Does he have a real hand or is he protecting a fragile one?
Hero calls
ATM calls

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
TAG bets
Hero ???
I way behind quite a few of the possible hands that he would call AND check raise with- KK, TT, KT and am drawing dead to a flush

Thoughts? Suggestions? How does one find the line between throwing away bets and calling down likely inferior hands?

Thanks.

Rev. Good Will · #2 07-19-2005, 10:28 PM

Is TAG here a perceptive player? because if TAG took a note of your tight, aggressive play, he might just have any K, and just doing some blinds defense.

he can't C/R for protection, he was anticipating a bet by you, and his raise is just trapping extra bets, so he I'd think he's doing it for a few reasons:

1 - as mentioned above, took you for stealing blinds, trapping extra bets with what he thinks is the best hand

2 - Pumping either a diamond draw, a straight draw, or both.

3 - a set, specifically 33, I'd think he'd raise with TT or KK PF

my action? raise, and re-evaluate

Saint_D · #3 07-19-2005, 10:32 PM

Good job describing the hand. Write a book for every hand you post. (and don't post to many.) "No Reads" is the dumbest thing ever.

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds
Hero raises
ATM calls
TAG calls

What could TAG have? KK - TT, AK - KQ, AKs - QTs perhaps?

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with your read. TAG will overcall (as apposed to the cold call your other buddy makes here) with just about any playable hand. He has cover from the ATM. This a a great place for him to play offsuit broadways.

edit: Whoops he called 2 here. I KNEW you raised those aces. He has a pocket pair or suited broadway, I think. BLind Defense is also a factor as panda says. That widens his range a bit as well.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
TAG checks.
Hero bets
ATM calls
TAG raises (?!?) Does he have a real hand or is he protecting a fragile one?

[/ QUOTE ]

From out of position he wouldn't want to check this hand with a fragile hand vulverable to redraws. (if he is as good as you say.) Most likely he has a set with a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. This is a good time to let go of your aces. I also don't like to get mixed up with someone I think might be better than me on a dicey hand.

[ QUOTE ]

Hero calls
ATM calls

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
TAG bets
Hero ???
I way behind quite a few of the possible hands that he would call AND check raise with- KK, TT, KT and am drawing dead to a flush

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise or fold. Calling is the worst option here. If he has a strong hand, but fears the flush he might release to a raise. Facing the ATM with 2 cold MIGHT cause him to fold a single flush card as well improving your chances. Personally I would pop this and see what mr. TAG does.

[ QUOTE ]

Thoughts? Suggestions? How does one find the line between throwing away bets and calling down likely inferior hands?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that if I raise or fold everytime I have to think about it that I STILL call to much. So this is hard to say. Play a bunch of hands and see of you PT stats are out of whack. That might tell you wich way to lean in these situations.

By the way, this was a tough hand. I hope someone better than me can come along and give us the "right" answers.

Responding to a lot of hands (without reading the rest of the replies first, AKA grunching) is a great way to learn.

SmileyPSU · #4 07-19-2005, 10:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am fairly new here and am making my way through SSHE.

I am pretty good w/hand selection although I still cannot get my head around raising for value pre-flop w/out a pair [and before someone else says it- yes perhaps I just need to grow my own pair [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

When I first got into the online poker thing and went through SSHE, I never was so tight that I'd have trouble raising non-pocket pairs, but I always used to cringe when I'd build pots w/flopped straight and flush draws. The idea of tossing money in w/o a made hand always worried me, even though I knew it was the correct play.

What ended my concern about this was beginning at stakes I was comfortable with, and that I knew I could beat. I started at nano-limits where I was ok with pushing when I had a pot equity edge, but not a made hand. After I saw positive results from plays like this, and I built up my bankroll to go to subsequent levels (only at 1/2 6-max but clear progress from my beginnings)it wasn't so hard to push my edges anymore because I was comfortable with the money I was betting and had seen concrete proof that it was the right move.

Just my .02 about how to get over that initial phobia, which you will need to do if you want to beat these games.

As for the hand...

Party Poker (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds
Hero raises
ATM calls
TAG calls

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
TAG checks.
Hero bets
ATM calls
TAG raises
Hero calls
ATM calls

I reraise here. TAG does not have a set as he would reraise w/AA-TT. You're probably looking at TPGK or a straight or flush draw. You're ahead, you've got aces, you raise. If he caps I'd put him on twopair or a flush/straight draw.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
TAG bets
Hero ???

*Curses the third diamond and the Villain's bet, but reraises. Reraising him with the bigger turnbet will tell you just how much he likes his hand. If he caps I'd probably fold here, but I don't think calling here and another river bet improved is bad either.

*disclaimer: not responsible for bad advice

aK13 · #5 07-19-2005, 10:52 PM

The only reason not to 3bet the flop is to raise any turn.

Either one is fine, but pick one.

Btw, I believe ATMs are typically analogous to LAGgy players, not calling stations, as they love to spew money with obviously beaten hands.

Barry42 · #6 07-20-2005, 12:09 AM

Even after being check raised?

How can you be so certain I am ahead here, or am I missing the point?

eviljeff · #7 07-20-2005, 01:19 AM

you *have* to 3bet this flop. even given your premium range of holdings for villain, you're most likely ahead. and check this out: given that ATM is calling all your bets, you can be ahead of villain <50% of the time and still profit (yes, even accounting for the times that ATM sucks out). you have the uber pair. go to war.

eviljeff · #8 07-20-2005, 01:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Most likely he has a set with a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

are you kidding me??? this is the narrowest hand range I've ever seen based on a single check/raise.

Me and You · #9 07-20-2005, 01:52 AM

I raise the turn. why would you check raise a flush draw? If he calls, another tough decision to make on the river if he reraises you fold. If he folds great.

PS. Noob here could be bad advice