Quick Question Live 1/2 NL

bobhalford · #1 07-18-2005, 03:52 PM

I've got $225, villain has me covered. He seems to be a bad player, although I hadn't been able to observe long enough to determine really if he was bad or just tricky. He was calling large bets with bottom pair, chasing to the bottom end of straights, calling raises with Q4o pf, etc.

Folded to me in the CO with QQ, I raise to $20, button raises to $55...I raise to $110, he goes all-in - I call. I am posting this just because I've only played NL cash games 4 times in my life..I'm really a limit player interested in NL. Later when I got home I read in Greenstein's book that good players do not like to involve their entire stack on one hand. In my mind, he could have been doing this with any pocket pair, but then again I have a tight image at the table. Any helpful comments you could impart to me?

BB_Specials · #2 07-18-2005, 03:59 PM

QQ is a good hand that can get you into a lot of trouble. Most players are only reraising premium hands PF. I might call his original reraise here with QQ and push the flop barring that there are no scare cards. But, that will still get you into trouble if he is playing KK/AA.

Here, I would probably fold QQ and he'll likely have KK/AA.

DrPublo · #3 07-18-2005, 04:04 PM

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Later when I got home I read in Greenstein's book

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You probably want to read the book BEFORE you get to the cardroom.

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Any helpful comments you could impart to me?

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Go back to limit. IMO it is very difficult to transition from limit to NL (and visa versa) as the mindset is very different. Also the biggest games will also be limit, meaning the highest earning potential is at limit.

The Doc

theben · #4 07-18-2005, 04:06 PM

i'll generally play QQ for a lot of money against total donkeys as long as they overplay hands.

some donkeys who seem delighted by calling w/ Q4os, bottom pair, etc call with junk but raise with thier real hands. of course, a donkey might view 77+ as a 'real' hand, so theres always quite some thought required when playing a marginal 'good' hand for a stack

bobhalford · #5 07-18-2005, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Go back to limit. IMO it is very difficult to transition from limit to NL (and visa versa) as the mindset is very different. Also the biggest games will also be limit, meaning the highest earning potential is at limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I will go back to limit. However, I enjoy playing live as opposed to the internet, and there are no limit live games here. I thought I was doing pretty well..ahead $1250 after 3 winning sessions until this hand came up. How can I get better at this game unless I play it? I've got Ciaffone's books...the NL one and Improve Your Poker...but they did not prepare me for the strange hands people seemed to play regularly (any ace, raises pf with Q6s). After reading these boards lately, I've concluded that hand requirements are much different in these NL games.

DrPublo · #6 07-18-2005, 04:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Go back to limit. IMO it is very difficult to transition from limit to NL (and visa versa) as the mindset is very different. Also the biggest games will also be limit, meaning the highest earning potential is at limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I will go back to limit. However, I enjoy playing live as opposed to the internet, and there are no limit live games here. I thought I was doing pretty well..ahead $1250 after 3 winning sessions until this hand came up. How can I get better at this game unless I play it? I've got Ciaffone's books...the NL one and Improve Your Poker...but they did not prepare me for the strange hands people seemed to play regularly (any ace, raises pf with Q6s). After reading these boards lately, I've concluded that hand requirements are much different in these NL games.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is people playing any ace and stuff like Q6s any different from the Party 3/6 limit game?

That being said, yes the starting requirements in NL are very much different. You have to learn not to think in terms of extra bets won/saved/leaked but in terms of stacks , and mistakes in NL are of much larger consequence. I also don't have to mention that calling down in NL is way more expensive than in limit.

Of course, basic concepts like not calling raises with dominated hands, etc. still apply at NL.

The Doc

BigEndian · #7 07-18-2005, 04:26 PM

Easy fold of QQ if his all-in gives you less than 4-1 pot odds.

Edit: Btw, by your description of this player they are horrible - not tricky. But based on the action, even the most naive player can see that you have one of three likely hands with JJ a remote and distant 4th.

- Jim

BigEndian · #8 07-18-2005, 04:31 PM

This isn't very constructive...

And I disagree with your comment on what games are most profitable.

- Jim

bobhalford · #9 07-18-2005, 04:43 PM

Well, he had AA, and the flop came ATT, and we were both all-in. In retrospect, I think in was still thinking in tournament mode and my thoughts were tainted by the fact that this guy had a big stack and seemed like a reckless player trying to move me off my hand with AT,AJ,AQ,AK, or 22-JJ. With my reraise I figured I was pot committed, so I felt I had to call. I had seen him do donkish things up to this point, and just couldn't believe he had the goods. I felt pretty dumb too even though I got cold-decked.

Two hands later I get JJ on the button and raise to $15 and the previous villain calls along with several others and the flop comes 9 6 3 (2 spades) and I go all-in with the rest of my stack (about $85). This guy keeps looking over at me with a menacing stare, thinking about what he's going to do with his 97o. I guess he was trying to get a "read" on me lol. It was so goofy. In the end there is a 3rd caller who turns the spade flush and I pick up and go home wondering if there's any point in continuing to play this game. As I type this I think about going back and giving it another shot. Go figure.

bobhalford · #10 07-18-2005, 05:02 PM

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And I disagree with your comment on what games are most profitable.

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Yes, I was wondering about this too. My first time playing this game was at the same place with a bunch of loose players intent on losing all their money with speculative hands. They were calling all-in bets with strange hands...sometimes even A high. After that experience, I thought I should quit limit and just focus on learning how to beat this NL game in the cardroom. I just didn't see how any of these guys could know more about this game than me (and I'm not patting myself on the back by saying this). But last night changed my perspective a lot, even though I witnessed some horrendous play when sitting at that table. On one hand, I feel that I don't have enough "gamble" to play with these LAGs, but on the other hand, I think I can profit by waiting for good opportunities to see flops cheaply with suited connectors and the like and banking on it when they hit. However, I feel extremely uncomfortable calling a loose players pf raise with K7s or A8o, even though much of the time these hands seem to be better than the pf raisers. I'm not sure how valuable "reads" are in these situations because donkeys get dealt good hands too.